Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Federal 400gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw/.458 Win Mag

I've a chance to buy a box for my .458 Win Mag. Anyone with experience? I've never used a factory product before in my .458, but this looks like it might be worthwhile for a spring bear. Any thoughts?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
Not in .458 but have used 335gn TBBC in a .416 Weatherby which were very good.

I would expect same from 400's in 458.
John

Bob,
I think, that would be one of my top choices for a factory load. The 400 grain load seems to be hit or miss, as to seeing it on shelves.

I have only shot rocks with this load, but it would make lots of smaller pieces out of bigger ones. When I found one of the solid shanks after rock pulverizing, I was pretty sold on the bullet integrity. This was before today's high prices, and the present silver/nickel coating.

I was fortunate enough to buy several boxes of silver ones a few years ago. They were at a "close out" price. About 1/2 of normal price. After the Barnes 400 X-bullet disappeared, I thought these would be top choice for North American type game.

I believe RifleCrank chronograph'd some of these last year.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input. I was going to reload something - I have lots of choices.But this came up because I really would like to try a quality factory load using a lighter bullet than 500grs. I'd done some reading in the past on the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 400gr and thought it might be worth a try. Of course, premium factory loads aren't cheap, especially in large bores, but it turns out that they are cheaper in Canada than in the States! That's a first!

I think I'll take the plunge for one box initially to get sighted, chronographed and perhaps a couple in test media. That should leave ten or so for the hunt. If RifleCrank (Sir Ron) reads this and has chronographed some of those loads maybe he'll let me know his results.
Thanks again.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sirs,
Yep. Should be a good buy.
Advertised at 2250 fps for the 400-gr TBBC,
I got a 5-yd velocity of 2333 fps average for 8 shots over chrono at 77*F.

If BC = 0.353 (published), MV = 2345 fps
from
24"-barreled factory Winchester M70 .458 WinMag.
A pleasant surprise.

Federal ammo has always been good to me.
As accurate and uniform as any factory ammo overall.
In getting on paper and zeroing scope with those 8 rounds,
next to last scope adjustment gave 3-shot cluster in a one-hole cloverleaf at 50 yards at proper elevation
then one more scope adjustment and two shots corrected the windage.

Dissected one round:
Nickel-plated case, copper-colored bullet.
65.4 gr of small-grained extruded powder, about 100% LR, not compressed.
Bullet weight actual = 390.5 grains.
Case + unfired primer weight = 244.5 grains
COL = 3.315"
BOL = 1.266"
Brass length = 2.490"
Seating depth = 0.441" (crimped on cannelure)

TBBC bullets have a great reputation as softs.
Fine if you cannot get a 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Condolences for that.

Sir Ron,
Thanks a bunch!

Some of the data I knew from Federal's site. But 2345 fps is a surprise! For calculating recoil I guessed 68 grs of propellant. Any thoughts on what powder they use for that load? I had a phone conversation with Carter on a bonded 400gr/.458 before he sold to Federal - he told me he was selling to Federal. Terry Weiland wasn't too happy with Federal's replacement of Carter's work. Said the Federal's Bear Claw was too brittle. Any thoughts?

The 404 SH isn't available here. A place in Scarborough (GTA) has some Shock Hammers but nothing in .458. And they won't stock that large bullets unless I can come up with a sizable order which is out of my class (also in view of the fact of my age that will permit me to hunt and shoot for how much longer? Only God knows, but likely not more than a couple or three years.

Keep up your good work!

Shalom
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Reverend Sir Bob,
For some reason I SWAG it might be RL-7, or H4198, or H322 in that order of likelihood.
I have not laid out the 3 powders for visual comparison to the factory load,
just guessing by charge weight vs MV for the little-stick powders.

There are pluses and minuses with any changes in the TBBC from original to later versions.
John Barsness had an article in HANDLOADER #313 in early 2018 tracking that trail.
I would happily use that factory loaded Federal TBBC 400-gr .458 WinMag on anything in NA or worldwide,
as long as I had a good FN solid for dinosaur and such.

Good stuff, Sir Ron, thanks.

When you wrote: "65.4 gr of small-grained extruded powder", I immediately thought "H4198". It's been awhile since I've had RL7 in stock, having replaced it with H4198. But I do have some H4198 and H322.

All the best . . . .

Shalom

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Well, I went and done it. . . Got a box of those Federal 400gr TBBC. Very impressed with their appearance and packaging. Heavy too - 2 lbs, 10 oz. Will be giving them a try in early April if the weather cooperates. Will give a report. Thanks to all for your encouragement - it's been many years since a box of factory ammo for a centerfire rifle has been purchased, and never for a .458 WM. Special thanks to Sir Ron for the details.

No copper coloured bullets though. . . . Both cases and bullets are silver in appearance: "Plated bullet enhances corrosion protection." and the cases look identical.

I wonder if they'll chronograph the same as Ron's - or with the same powder? If you still have your box or plastic container, here are two sets of numbers, one above the bar code and the other below: 20033242 and 2946508954 - thought it might be interesting to know if they came from the same batch.

I've posted on the African threads, asking for info from anyone with experience using them on game.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
I think another rational for the nickel-plated bullets is less jacket fouling of barrel.
I would have to do some digging in storage to find the codes for comparison, later.
Here is a rerun of an old image of the powder if you can tell anything from this:

Sir Ron,

Is that powder as black as it appears in the photo? All my Extreme Powders from Hodgdon, 4198, 322 and 4895 have a lighter color of gold and gray mixed. Just curious, not critical. Thanks for sharing. With all the demands on your life, don't bother about the bar codes.

Shalom
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
Just got back from a day at SCI Nashville.
Attended the Jim Shockey events and wandered the entire indoor acreage.
Will get out those powders tomorrow for visual comparison.
The pulled powder was pretty black not with the golden hue you speak of ...
and those numeric codes on the ammo box ...
will dig.

I dissecrted a round of the 400gr TBBC, and gave the details on the other thread "The great .458.... everyone should own at least one". Not sure why I did that. Anyway, here it is again:

73.3 grs of ball powder (flattened and black).

Bullet weight = 400.5 grs

COL = 3.315" (same a Sir Ron's)

Case and primer = 245 grs

Length of case = 2.415"

Bullet length = 1.281"

Any thoughts on that powder, Sir Ron?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,

You did that because I got confused and posted this over there:

All bets are off on your powder charge for the new version of the 400-gr TBBC.
Totally new bullet is hopefully closer to 400 grains than the old one that weighed 390.5 gr., specimen of one.
New bullet is grooved and nickel-plated.
New bet:
Federal is using Alliant Power Pro Varmint in the new load.
You need to pull one of the bullets and weigh the powder and bullet for us please.
Safest "weigh" to do that is to weigh the loaded cartridge and subtract bullet weight and weight of primed case
after the powder is dumped = weight of powder. Just in "case" any grains go astray in the pulling process.
Or just be very careful to not lose any powder and weigh the powder directly.
I am sure you will get good pics of the new bullet and the powder grains.
For the new bullet, length of bullet (BOL) and the loaded ammo COL would be nice for posterity.
And while you are at it, what brass length did they use at the factory, 2.490"?
Finally, a chronograph reading when the risen creeks have gone down ?

Federal is still claiming 2250 fps MV for their 400-gr TBBC factory load.
Component bullets of that species are not available in their 2024 ammo catalog that I found at SCI Nashville yesterday.

And this:

Sir Bob was correct about the gold/brownish tint on the H4198 and H322.
I am all out of RL-7, RL-10-X was as close as I could get on hand:







IIRC, the RL-7 is "blacker" than the H4198.

Federal ammo, old versus new packaging,
more than the boxes have changed:







BTW, the FN Barnes solids are back in some form as components or loaded ammo of some kind,
according to the run-by of the Barnes Bullets exhibit at SCI 2024.
The RN solids still linger,
for whatever reasons.

Sir Ron;

I've done all you suggested - see my data above yours.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Thanks for all that, Sir Bob,

I will look at some of the Alliant Power Pro powders I have on hand.
Federal has a history of using a lot of Alliant powders.
First guess is still the Power Pro Varmint.

Excellent to see the new 400-gr TBBC is indeed a 400-grainer. Old one was a little shy at 390.5 grains.

Same COL as the old load (3.315") with the new bullet that is a little longer,
1.281" new BOL, 1.266" old.

They had to trim the brass short by a lot to make the COL same,
2.415" new BrassOL, 2.490" old.
That suggests the ogive of the new bullet is longer.

Old nose projection = 3.315" - 2.490" = 0.825"
Old seating depth = 1.266" - 0.825" = 0.441"

New nose projection = 3.315" - 2.415" = 0.900"
New seating depth = 1.281" - 0.900 = 0.381"

If they load that bullet into a .458 Lott they will have to trim the brass to no more than 2.700" to make 3.600" COL.

Federal is still listing the BC of the new TBBC 400-grainer as same as the old "390-gr" TBBC: 0.353
New form factor + heavier weight + drag from grooves = Same BC ?
Quite the coincidence.

How about a photo of that sexy new bullet lying next to loaded round ?
How many cannelure grooves on that new 400-gr TBBC bullet ?
Ammo package photo ?
Your chronograph readings will be interesting.

Back to the powders now ...

Sir Ron;

e-mailed a couple to you.

I think you are right on the powder.

Thanks

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Enaa baasee' Sir Bob,



A loaded Federal factory 400-gr TBBC cartridge sitting on manual of the AA-2230 powder company:



If they are truly keeping velocity down to 2250 fps from a 24" barrel, Varmint 73.3 grains sounds about right.
If it were the 1200-R of same appearance (flattened grains of ball powder), I SWAG it would be going much faster.









The partial range of powders eminently useful in the .458 WinMag:

Enaa baasee' to Sir Bob for two more pics: