Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Stock cross bolts, hardwood dowels or metal?

Have heard of using both. What are the advantages of either one?

Myself, I have always used metal, then bedded receiver with grey Marine-tex.

Have an old Husqvarna 9.3X62 without any cracks in the stock, and want to keep it that way.

Thanks,
Ted

Metal, either a bolt or a piece of all thread, capped over with ebony plugs. I’d not be interested in any dowels. First off, I want metal in there to do metal things, strengthen! Secondly, true hardwood dowels are harder to come by than metal bolts or all thread. A piece of proper strength wood might be an improvement, but maybe not. Metal surely is.

You really do need several things to do a decent job, a cross bolt jig, two size drill bits, stainless corbi-bolts, A dowel cutter. A hand wood plane, drill press.
You drill in with the larger bit about 1/2" each side then through both sides to the middle of the stock with the smaller bit, to the rear of the recoil lug and in front of the mag well, You cut two short dowels out of scrap stock wood or tip wood with a drill press, line up the grain, the stock and dowel, then glue the dowel in place, glue only inside the drilled hole small amount, let setup, then plane and sand off the excess of the dowel flush. Finish the stock.

An internal cross bolt in a slot milled across the bottom of the stock is an easy fix to prevent possible cracks. Won't show on the outside but serves the same purpose.

I used a course threaded deck screw and epoxy.

This what I am planning on a near minty HVa I have with a crack in the web between the recoil lug and magazine well. Gun is too nice to be subjected to my raccoon fingers and lack of a milling machine ( for cleanly cutting the slot for the blind cross bolt) so will have a smith do it. Welcome any pointers or advice from those who have done this before.

Stocks split for a couple of basic reasons. First, the grain runs lengthwise so the wood is likely to split along this axis. Second, the stock spreads at the mag well as recoil forces are applied to the stock. A third factor is a poor fit in the recoil lug mortise which helps to break out the wood right behind the lug.
The best prevention includes improving the fit and reinforcing the stock against splitting. The first is accomplished with epoxy bedding, the second with the use of crossbolts, screws, or dowels. I don't think there is a lot of difference in the performance of any of these, providing the installation is well done. I have done it all. I have used wooden dowels, fiberglass dowels, hidden screws, and crossbolts. I actually like dowels as well as anything. Dowels bond very well to the stock and stop the tendency to split. Dowels may be visible or hidden. Crossbolts are visible but are viewed as an accessory item and an aesthetic a feature as well. Hidden screws are like dowels but are probably stronger. Sometimes, I like to use wood to reinforce wood, just because it seems "right". Just like using natural oils for a finish. Harmony. GD

As GD points out, it starts with a well done pillar bedding job where the back of the recoil has maximum contact with the rear of the recoil lug mortise. On the Mauser type actions, I toss the loose metal spacers and put real pillars in.

For a 'cross bolt', my preference is to mill a slot across the flat behind the lug mortise and epoxy in a piece of 3/16" aluminum kept 1/8" below the flat area. When it's bedded, the compound covers it nicely and that area becomes very strong.

I've also used two pieces of 1/8" aluminum square stock and angled them across the flat in an 'X'...that works well too.

If the stock is really dry wood, a good start is to use a thin penetrating epoxy, heat the area up with a hair dryer or heat gun and brush on the epoxy. It will pull into the wood like you won't believe and really make things solid. I just did a 788 Remington stock this way...works good.

Good shootin' -Al

Most wood specialty stores carry walnut dowels. I have use it to repair several double shotgun stocks and my TC Hawkin that my mule ran my scabbard into a tree. That was about 15 years ago and it is still holding

As my stock appears to have developed its crack in the web from drying rather than recoil ( no signs of previous firing) this is exactly the info I need. Will follow this guidance and well as install a blind cross bolt/reinforcement.

Thanks Al

IME&O metal crossbolts are the answer to the question no one should be asking.

Epoxy has been doing the job better for nearly three-quarters of a century without the need for extremely precise machining.

I have seen all-thread/epoxy failures, as well as rods, and bar stock. Thermal expansion rates are quite different between metals and epoxies. Add significant recoil...

I believe it was Saddlesore that posted a long time ago about embedded Kevlar fishing line crossways in the recoil lug bedding. It works very well and it is easy. One warning though, many fishing lines are sterated for lubing the line. It cuts eyes very fast if they don't.

Yukoner;
Good evening sir, I hope the weather up in your area is tolerable tonight and you're all well.

Interesting that your Husky has no cracks in it, for sure if you find one without it's desirable to keep it that way.

Before Tradex shut down, a buddy ordered a couple of the Husky rifles they had and the 9.3x62 had metal that appeared nearly new and the stock was cracked behind the tang, recoil lug and in front of it as well.

Anyways as always there's many roads to Mecca with most things and I'll relay what I've done thus far.

For deep cracks in a stock, System 3 G2 which is a 2:1 epoxy with the consistency of honey will get into the cracks, fissures and grain like nothing else I've used. I've used Sitka's idea to heat the wood up with a hair dryer or heat gun - carefully - then apply G2 and then stretch wrap the stock.

On a Marlin .45-70 with a badly cracked stock, the repair is still bouncing around on quads in the back country of the Peace a decade later.

For bedding, I'm a huge fan of the Kevlar fishing line put into the epoxy. I've been using something that I'm running out of and can't find anymore, but it's the consistency of Brownell's Acragel more or less.

Also while I've used threaded metal rods on some repairs and reinforcements, including rifles that were used out of Whitehorse, it does make sense to me that wood makes more sense when gluing to other wood.

Mostly I'm using a combination of wood and Spider wire these days, but will put in metal threaded rod if the customer specifically asks.

Hope that made sense and was useful.

All the best and good shooting Yukoner.

Dwayne

Like the idea of the penetrating epoxy. I used super thin isocyanate glue in the spider cracked areas of my 8x68S Mauser 98 recently along with a threaded rod and MarineTex. Always fun to see different ideas on this forum.

I'll remember the kevlar line idea, thanks for posting. Just like rebar to take the tension loading in reinforced concrete.

MikeS;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope this finds you well, warm and dry down in your part of Arizona.

If you like a thinner epoxy, as mentioned I've had wonderful success with the System 3 G2 product which has the consistency of liquid honey.

It's a 2:1 which I want to say I read was developed for laminating woods like teak so it'll penetrate even the greasier hardwoods. I've used it for rosewood fore end tips and grip caps with complete success.

In fact, I've brushed on a thin coat of G2 for a stock finish to fill the pores, then applied Tru Oil on that and so help me it looks like I've applied many coats of Tru-Oil.

For sure it's a gooey mess doing an entire stock and the stuff takes at least 24 hours to cure, sometimes closer to 30 I want to say, but my goodness it's tougher than my Teutonic skull.

On the Kevlar strands of fishing line, when I read it here I thought the very same thing - rebar in concrete - and have used it ever since.

I've also used fiberglass strands and they work okay, but the Spider Wire type of fishing line is easier to use for me.

All the best and good luck in your future stock repairs and bedding jobs.

Dwayne

Do any of you have any helpful hints on the use of Kevlar fishing lines or what brands or lpoundage work best.

Hal

HalH;
Good morning to you sir, I hope the day down in your part of Montana is behaving itself and you're well.

The Kevlar line that I use was given to me by a friend when his ex lost the rest of the rod and reel, but left a spool with whatever it was on it. I want to say he said it was lighter stuff - perhaps 20lb? It's quite thin.

Thinking about your question, I don't believe I've seen anything that'd lead me to believe the diameter of the line would make much difference other than thicker is easier to see with my semi-old guy eyes anymore.

For use, I pre-cut as many strands as I want to lay into the layer of epoxy ahead of time and then will place them into the epoxy with a shop tweezers. Then with some popsicle sticks that I've flattened one end, I'll just push that layer of Kevlar threads in and add some more epoxy on top.

Honestly I don't believe I've done more than a couple layers so far on any bedding job, but one surely could if it was for a kicker.

As mentioned I used to use fiber class cloth threads, but they'd come apart easier and overall it was a bigger mess as well as a less clean look when the bedding job was done.

I'm guessing here too, but like rebar in concrete, I don't think one needs a whole bunch of rebar to substantially increase the concrete strength or Kevlar strands to strengthen the epoxy.

Someday one of us should do a bit of a test to see I suppose, but the epoxy I use will shatter when struck with enough force - say with a hammer for instance.

A now long passed mentor who showed me how to bed, checker and shape stocks used to add powdered metal to his epoxy sometimes, but I could never quite see that it increased the strength noticeably.

Anyways, hopefully that made sense and was useful.

All the best.

Dwayne

I used the 30# Spider wire.I have had more uses for it than I did fishing. I don't thing poundage would make much difference.

Hey Dwayne .... What are the advantages of the Kevlar line over a course threaded screw in a blind cross bolt?

No flame intended, just never heard of your method before.

SuperCub;
Good afternoon my friend, I hope the day's been kind to you all and you're all well out east.

While I've not directly seen failures in bonding threaded rod, epoxy and wood, some here such as Sitka Deer have seen that.

The chance of failure is likely exacerbated in severe cold weather because of how wood and metal differ in their expansion and contraction rates as related to temperature change.

Years back when I read that, I experimented with individual fiberglass cloth strands - the theory being snowmobile hoods were made out of it and that all worked not too, too bad.

That said, the snowmobile hoods were not wood bonded to fiberglass cloth either so there is that.

Somewhere during that time, saddlesore reported success using chunks of Spider Wire fishing line, so that's how I started trying it.

The idea, admittedly again a working and developing theory with me SuperCub, but so far so good, is that the Kevlar braided line gives me some reinforcing material in the epoxy that is relatively close to wood in its expansion and contraction.

It's also a bunch of smaller pieces as opposed to a bigger piece of threaded metal, so it might be like a cable in being stronger as the sum of it's parts.

For sure and certain though, I'm no scientist and could well be entirely wrong in all of this.

Hope that all made some semblance of sense?

All the best.

Dwayne

Dwayne,
Trust your day is going well.

A quick thought on all the varieties of epoxy with powdered metals... The advertising was claiming nearly identical thermal expansion rates between the metal and the metal/epoxy blend. They also claimed harder surfaces and greater strength.
art

Sitka deer;
Good morning my cyber friend, I hope that you and your fine family are well as can be on this Monday.

Thanks for the additional information on the metal being added in, I want to say that lines up with what the mentor had told me back when.

Ironically - as an aside - a good and old friend and I were out calling coyotes yesterday morning and as two aging fellows will do, we were reminiscing about friends no longer with us. When the mentor/friend above came up, he was surprised when I told him that he was now older than our buddy was when he passed.

Funny how perspective on age, or better said what represents someone we think of as "old" changes when we get there ourselves somehow.

Anyways Sitka, back to your post, I suppose that's not totally different than JB Weld which contains 11% powdered steel so they say.

Adding powdered metal surely could make an epoxy blend tougher, I am not sure and have done no testing to prove to myself one way or the other.

Honestly I've not done any destructive tests with the Kevlar line in epoxy either to be clear.

I'm only going off of a lifetime of repairing and rebuilding all sorts of things from firearms, woodworking machinery, automotive and even plastic repair.

All the best and thanks again.

Dwayne

Dwayne. Good day to you. When more of your friends are under the sod rather on top, you know you are old.

A long time ago and far, far away I "glass" bedded an Interams Whitworth .375 in a ?Lee Six fiberglass and foam core stock using MarineTex epoxy IIRC and real fiberglass strands pulled from short pieces of fiberglass tape intended for boat repair. IIRC the glass strands were laid crosswise in the area to be bedded and the epoxy carefully applied over the strands. More strands were laid crosswise on top of the wet epoxy before setting the barreled action in the stock. Although the ?polyurethane foam core seemed very rigid, I was concerned that it would be compressed from the recoil lug beating against it's recess. This was my first attempt at resin bedding and it has held up well.

Not just any glass strands would be appropriate because laminating fiberglass is treated with a chemical to enhance "wetting out" as the resin...polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy...is applied. Truth be known, just about any fiber that epoxy would adhere to would strengthen the application. The more fibers added, up to just short of the material failing to completely wet out, the stronger the fiber and resin combination will be. My aging memory cannot recall the glass treatment.

I've also used WEST (wood epoxy saturation technique) System epoxy...good stuff... mixed with their thickener agents to bed actions in wood stocks. WEST System epoxy is mixed 1:1 and has very low viscosity for a resin. It penetrates wood well and wets out fabric well. WEST offers two hardeners, one slow and one fast for working in cooler temperatures or quicker turn around.

I like to pull apart a piece of carbon fiber cloth with a coarse weave and lay the warp sections along the repair.

Well, after a lot of consideration of your posts on here and showing the stock to a very talented friend who is a magician with wood, I bedded it using grey Marine Tex and no cross bolt.

First, lightly scraped the interior of the stock using a razor sharp quarter-inch mortising chisel where the bedding would be. Next, gave the exterior of the stock, the barreled action, floor plate, and the stock bolts a good polish with Johnson’s Paste Wax for the release agent, and proceeded with the job.

Checked the stock bolts to be sure they would turn easily after two hours, turned them back in snug and put it to bed for the night. Popped it out in the morning to check, and there were no voids, no skim bedding needed. Put it back together for two days to be sure it was fully cured.

All pretty much ABC procedure, nothing new. Took it to the range for a test fire yesterday and all is well. Next trip to the range will be tomorrow.

This is will become my designated bison rifle and the forecast here is for -27C and colder the next few days. Typical weather that we hunt them in, so will let the ammo and rifle soak overnight in that before double checking the sights.

Will let you all know after checking velocity and accuracy at that temperature how everything goes.

Ted

Never did get out for Bison, but the rifle is shooting two inch groups with an old Pecar 1.5-5 variable on board.

That’s with a 290 Matrix bonded at just a tad over 2300 fps load for bison. Everything else will be using the 270gr Speer.

Thinking seriously about shortening the 24 inch barrel to 20.

Ted