Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 1/2 MOA Rifle, But...

The first shot out of the day is usually about 1 1/2" to the left of subsequent shots. After that first shot every 100 yd group is well under an inch, cool, warm or hot barrel, doesn't seem to matter. The rifle is a Kimber Montana. I've bedded the action forward of the magazine well up to the recoil lug, the rest of the barrel is free floated. This tightened the groups, but did not help otherwise. Any suggestions for a fix for this?

Have a 700 BDL that would do that on the first shot from a clean barrel after that it never happened. Since its a hunting rifle I just put up with it. Lately been using lock eeze in the bore and while it didnt cure it completely it has helped alot.

If you shoot 5 shots out of the barrel it'll put one 1 1/2" the left and the next 4 in a 1/2"?


Before I messed with anything, I'd put a couple 5 shot groups through it and see if the trend continues.

In my case it doesn't seem to matter if it's a clean barrel or not.

beretzs, I actually have not fired any 5 shot groups, only 3 shot groups. Otherwise yes, that first group typically would be the first shot off to the left and the next two almost touching. After that first group it consistently does 1/2 to 3/4" for 3 shots. I guess I should try some 5 shot groups.

Once it's been fired that first time it's very consistent.

Mine has been repeatable for 20 years. First shot out of a clean barrel. 1”- 1 1/2” low left every dang time.

Having shot High Power matches for years, 50 shots for record, 20 of which are rapid fire...plus sighters, would it be impertinent to suggest some of you gentlemen are cleaning your rifles way too much?
That said, I'd take a good look at guard screw hole clearance, tang clearance, and a full float magazine box.

I don't think it's a cleaning issue in my case. This is a hunting rifle, I might shoot it 20 or 30 times before deer season to develop and/or confirm a load, then 2 or 3 times during the season, then clean it and put it away for 8 months. I feel like I've addressed the mag box and various screws.

Is that cold bore shot consistent?

If so, I would zero to it. Then hunt.
My Montana is set up that way.

I have a Savage 110 in 25-06 that does a similar thing. First shot from a dirty or clean barrel goes 3" high. The next 3 shots go into .75" at my zero point. I usually zero 2" high at 100 yards, so the first shot of the day goes 5" high.
Once, when I was driving by a place that I had permission to hunt on, I spotted some pronghorn. I swung the truck around, parked and started a stalk. I kept telling myself that the first shot will shoot high. At 260yds I held dead on and shot right over it's back! No matter what I tell myself, when fur is in the cross hairs, I seem to forget it.

I saw a 1" chop and re-crown tighten up a M70 Sporter .30'06.
Figure it must have something to do with harmonics.
I accept things can happen with the lighter contour tubes and rock on.
If it was a competition/serious duty rifle with a heavier profile, I would be re-tubing for sure.

Been working with a Douglas #1 on a ULA in .30'06 recently. I am impressed with its consistency. The Montana may take a position in the rear of the safe.

If I had a rifle doing that, I'd simply always fire a fouling shot before looking at a group. I guess it could be a cold barrel doing that too. I wouldn't try a five shot group to find a fix to the problem, just live with the need for a fouling shot. To see if it's a cold barrel fire a three shot group then set the rifle aside long enough to completely cool it and then try again. I don't fire a lot of five shot group's as I figure no game animal is gonna stand around and watch me work the bolt for that many shot's! If the first or second shot doesn't work you'll probably not get a third or fourth shot much less a fifth.

About the to clean barrel, years ago I super cleaned the barrel after each use and back then I did need that fouling shot. These days I like the get the powder fouling out and leave some copper fouling. Seem that pretty much eliminated the need for the fouling shot for me. I think I read some years back that target shooter always shoot a fouling shot before getting serous!

If I can't sort it out by next deer season, I'll zero it for the first shot, but I'm hoping to sort it out. Maybe some pressure under the barrel at the forend?

I'll just throw it out there for you to check. Use a dollar bill in the barrel channel to check for adequate clearance between barrel and front sling swivel stud. Cold and hot if it's touching shorten the stud till it don't.mb

It could possibly be a shooter issue to consider as well. I don't dry fire, but maybe that would be a good place to start, before you shoot the first group.

Of course, full length bedding can be tried. Might help. Might not.
Have not read too many with Montana experience recommending it.

To me, start from the start and if the ammo is consistent with bedding sound and proper rings/scope I'd consider it a barrel issue.
Your shooting good groups after the CBS leads me to eliminate a shooter issue.
Go ten or more CBS on the same target. Observe results.
7/08?

Next time I'll dry fire a couple of shots before shooting groups, just to rule operator error out.

I would shoot (3) 5 shot groups at the same target and see if the first shot falls within the group.

My .250 Savage does this for the first shot from a clean barrel. I will only shoot a big critter on the first shot out to 300 yards.

A 1/2 MOA rifle based on 2 or three shots… you are making guesses.

Shoot 20 rounds and see what a better representation of your group is, I’ll bet the “first round flyer” is inside of your group - assuming it’s from a fouled barrel. Certainly, your group size is way bigger than 1/2 MOA.

A lot of guys want to overlook this, but it's exactly true!!^^^ One reason they used 10 shot groups in the "MOA All day long" challenge here. Shoot those groups in that fashion, and a lot of guys realize they don't even have true MOA rifles. There has been a lot less guys saying they have "1/2 moa" rifles here, since that thread came out though. Thanks for the guy that started that thread! A lot of guys tried, and a lot of guys failed to produce..

take it out to the range and shoot it 6 (the first is a fouler shot) times at the target. DO NOT CLEAN THE BARREL. the next day or week, shoot a 5 shot group. DO NOT CLEAN THE BARREL. and the next day or week, shoot another 5 shot group. if all 5 shot groups are 1/2 - 3/4", then you don't have clean barrel. the rifle will tell you not to clean the barrel for hunting. after the season is closed, clean the barrel.

the reason is the first shot is need to put copper/lead residue into the lands and grooves to make them smooth. it can be the first shot or it can fifth shot.

a big part of the reason is why i use cast bullets on deer is that i don't like to clean my rifles. oh, i will always use a gun rag with Ballistol to clean the outside of the rifle, but i hate to clean the inside of the rifle barrel. my dad (RIP) and the US Army made me clean the rifles, both inside and out, when i was done shooting them. they made me the monster that i am.

i have a Marlin m25 in 22LR that shoots bug holes (CCI Stinger HP) at 50 yards. but when i clean the rifle, it is always 25 to 50 rounds fired thru Marlin to settle it down so i can shoot bug holes again. the only time i clean the inside of the barrel is when the brass is stuck in the chamber after the shot. i can go 4000-5000 rounds before i clean the inside of the barrel.

my 444 Marlin (TC Encore with 23"MGM barrel) using cast bullets is around 2500-3000 rounds fired and it is still accurate. same with the 30-40 Krag, 35/30-30, 9.3x57 and others.

That’s what I was thinking myself. BG rifle or not, that’ll tell you what the gun is doing.

My first shot at the range from a clean barrel is fouling shot not on the target, then I shoot for 3 or 5 shot groups. Before the hunt I make sure the barrel is clean then I will shoot one or two fouling shots and go hunting.

I had a rifle that shot 3/8" groups if they were all first shots from a clean barrel. Turned out to have nothing to do with the clean and everything to do with the cleaning. (I'll explain. :)) Eventually I found that if I whacked the ever loving f**k out of the butt between shots they'd all do that. SOMETHING was binding up and in the process of cleaning the gun, I was thumping it enough to release whatever tension was appearing. My theory was that the barreled action was shifting during recoil, sticking to the stock, and not returning to a neutral position unless I bashed it around (through cleaning) enough to break that contact.

I had another that had a different root to the 1 shot here, 4 over there. That one shot was always first. I always oiled the bore, then ran 2 dry patches through the barrel before putting it away. If, before shooting it, I'd use an aggressive degreaser, the shift between the first shot and the rest went away. So not first shot fouling but first shot on an oily bore, the rest without the oil.

My suggestion is to experiment s' more.

Try to have a few different friends shoot groups with it and see if it’s repeatable.

My first shot hunting is from a barrel that last shot at the range and I was satisfied with it's shooting there and there has been no bore cleaning whatsoever. That will come at season end... maybe.

^

I definitely have to shoot it more and experiment more. My hunting load is with Barnes LRX bullets, and at $1 a bullet, when they’re even available, I tend to be a bit stingy with the shooting. I’ll have to start working with something cheaper until I have it sorted out.

That was my thought also based on my experience with my Kimber. The factory bedding looked flawless but when I tightened down the front screw only the tang was about 1/8 above the stock so the bedding was actually torquing the action. My bedding doesn't look as pretty but it works better.

I too have a 700 Mountain rifle that did this (pillars, full bed). I believe the cause to be the pencil thin barrel and heat; I got to this point b/c after shots 5 or 6, it would open up further. What I did has been suggested above - I came out 5 days in a row and shot a single, cold-bore shot on the same target. .65MOA with 4 touching. I used this rifle to hunt with for over a decade, zeroing in on my first shot, cold-bore. No worries. And I distinctly remember cleaning making all grouping worse.

Then I started reloading. I finally found Nosler Ballistic Tips with Varget will group tight shots 1 through a barrel too hot to touch. This is the ONLY load I have found that does this. My diagnosis is a thin barrel. I think the Montana also has a thin barrel as well.

-B

This has been my experience and my solution with both my hunting rifles. They don't settle down until the barrels are fouled. So, that's the way I shoot em.

If the recoil lug isn't bedded correctly, that's the first place to look. -Al

If fouling the barrel then leaving it doesn’t work, consider bedding the barrel full-length. I’ve had a couple light-barreled rifles come that way from the factory, a Howa Alpine and a Fieldcraft, and they shot just fine. I believe I’ve read that NULAs came that way too.

Also, try a folded towel on the front bag when you shoot. Mule Deer advises that for light ones, and I’ve found it helps.

I am a True Believer in Cryo-Treating skinny barrels. If I have a light barrel that "walks" my group, etc, I spend the $150 and send the barreled action off to "300 Below" or some other place, for Stress Relieving. I have spent more money, shot more components, bit my lip more, fussed and agonized over more light rifles/light barrels than any other! In fact, If I "knew" that barrel would "scream" when its being frozen, I would pay extra for a recording of it...on some rifles, lol. Rarely have I seen this not settle down ol' Skinny! Just a suggestion, I have no investment in the Process or in selling the recordings to their frustrated owners! lol

A quick search showed a place that does cryo treatment not that far from me in Worcester, MA. I happen to be driving by there in a few weeks. Maybe I'll drop off the barrelled action there, give it a try.

If the lug doesn't fit the mortise well, the action can't return to the same place after each shot. This is often seen as a first round flier...subsequent shots are a bit tighter as the lug has settled into place a bit.

A good test for this is to remove the barrelled action, then reinstall it properly seating the lug. Often, that will settle down the first shot flier for a few groups.

Good shootin' -Al

Agree Big Time!

I just pressed the barrelled action back into the stock after I finished bedding it. Then I torqued the two action screws to factory spec. Should I have done something differently?

Not really, but you could try to back off to about 40 inch pounds and shoot it to see. Doesn't take much when there is bedding. For example, my new to me MK V ULTLWT in 338/06 shot tighter at 50 inch pds than at 55". It has a factory bedding block, but the lug could always use bedding. That was an indication to me the action was being strained. I have it over at the smith's getting re-bedded ( previous owner Bubbafied it, heck, while there I him ream it to the Ackley Imp. He likes to torque them to 35-40" pds. Also Lock tite the receiver screws when/if you find a sweet spot.

I torqued it to 45 inch lbs. I'll try 40, can't hurt.

I've got a 1966 vintage Model 70- in 30-06, that my Dad bought new. He only used Hoppes #9 on it, but I do not know how often he cleaned it.

When I first got it, I put together several different loads and headed to the range. It was a solid 2" shooter, with most of the loads, with none better than that.

The barrel was heavily coppered, judging from the green streaks at the muzzle, so I went after the copper with Hoppes Benchrest Copper Remover. After 1/2 of the bottle, there was still green streaks.

Wipeout came on the market about this time, with very good reviews, so I bought some, and over a Memorial Day weekend, I got the barrel clean.

At the 100yds range, the very first shot from the squeaky clean barrel did not even hit paper, and shot #2 was 8" off center.

After shot 2, the barrel settles down and shoots very, very well with it's favorite load. It will maintain accuracy for about 21-23 more shots, then the groups open up, and I have to deep clean again, fire 2 foulers, and then I can hunt with it.

One of the things I started doing quite a few years back was recording every group fired between cleanings. This was back in the day when a lot of gun writers suggested the "correct" cleaning interval, based on what benchrest shooters did--and even one major loading manual suggested the correct cleaning interval for various rounds--why, I don't know, since with most "hunting" cartridges the barrel tends to affect groups more than the cartridge itself.

Eventually found that for some unknown reason, quite a few barrels barrels will go only 15-20 rounds without cleaning before groups open up--while a few barrels will basically go forever--and when you do clean 'em groups open up, and sometimes stay that way for 10-15 rounds of "foulers." Two of my varmint rifles are luckily like that, a Remington 700 Varmint .223 Remington, and a CZ 452 .17 HMR. I eventually quit cleaning either at all. Their last cleaning was years ago (2006 for the .223) and both keep putting 5 shots in around half any inch at 100 yards. But I'm one of those shooters who would rather spend time shooting rifles rather than cleaning 'em.

Will also note that installing Dyna Bore-Coat extends cleaning intervals considerably before groups start opening up--and often seems to reduce "fliers" even after a cleaning. In the case of one .17 Remington it doubled the accuracy cleaning interval from around 100 rounds to 200. Clean-burning powders with decoppering agents often do the same sort of thing.

My test for good bedding is to tighten only 1 screw then tighten the other. The second screw should go from loose to tight in about 1/4 turn. If that works take out both screws and repeat with the opposite sequence. If there is a bedding problem the second screw that you tighten will have some resistance for a turn or two before it gets to the torque value. If that goes well you should be GTG.

The first rifle is a bedding issue. Not a "cleaning issue", as you state: The action should not be loose in the stock, for any reason. Yet, a lot of you guys make them that way, by allowing clearance in front and on the sides of the recoil lug etc. etc... That will fu ck up any precision you ever thought you had. If it's not shooting consistently, it might as well be thrown in the trash can.

The second rifle sounds like you need to lay off the oil. You should never have that much oil in the bore, that it's going to affect first shot POI.

Learn to bed them tight, and you won't have to fu ck around with that bull schidt..

Thanks for saying the quiet part out loud

Here's one for the 'Bed It Tight' advocates to ponder. This came to me recently for help after being done elsewhere initially.

Barrelled actions want one recoil lug surface...and that's the back of the recoil lug. Not the sides, not the front, not the bottom (unless the action screw goes into the lug), not the action screws, not the back of the tang. When you have multiple recoil loading surfaces that are not in line with what the barrelled action naturally does when it's fired, this can be the result.


Good shootin' -Al

Amen!

With multiple recoil surfaces, it's impossible for all of the surfaces to carry the same load or react in the same manner. Which prevents the barrelled action from staying in the same spot after each firing....which is what bedding is really all about. It's Physics 101 at it's most basic level.

As the example illustrates, bedded 'tight' recoil surfaces don't always carry the load rearward.

Good shootin' -Al

Or to put it another way, the recoil lug only has ONE job -to prevent REARWARD recoil. Anything else introduces more potential issues.

One other thing, unless the front and sides have a draft (taper) machined into them, a tightly bedded lug will shave material when being taken in an and out of the stock. There is almost no way to avoid it .

The only instance I would consider a fully bedded lug is if the barrelled action is permanently glued it.

Yep!

One my my favorite hunting rifles is a custom on a 700 action that had a fully-bedded lug--and an "over-sized" one, which isn't uncommon on such rifles.
It was a major PITA to take the stock off--and one of the things I prefer doing on hunts where I fly somewhere is taking the stock off the barreled action, so they'll fit in a "take-down" case.

I eventually ended up doing an experiment: After working up very accurate handloads with the fully-bedded lug, I filed all the lug-surfaces inside the stock until the only bedding surface was the rear of the lug. I then shot the rifle with the same loads, and there was no significant difference in the average group size. That was with 5-shot groups, not the these-days typical (but statistically far less valid) 3-shot groups....