Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Maybe we obsess too much

Glad I could help out.

Did I say how entertaining this stuff is?

Excuse me for a little bit while I go sharpen a knife, because, well, it's dull.

When I was into archery, it was with a long bow, no sights and wood arrows. They killed as well as the $2,000 outfits required today.

If everyone hunting deer had to use a 44-40 with buckhorn sights and factory ammo…

I used to shoot in a traditional archery league here in Phoenix. I shot a recurve, but the longbows and flatbows
were deadly in the right hands.

I don't think too many people obsess. It's a matter of trying to understand who they are and what makes them happy.

Joe Average

Some people buy a die set and use it to load whatever bullets they buy. You read their posts from time to time.

"I'm happy with Core Lokts and use the same RCBS die set I bought in 1969."

They might have a 308 Winchester they've been shooting for years and use the same bullets all the time. Occasionally, they read about some new bullet and might buy a box to try, but that's the exception, not the rule. They appreciate tools that last and consider themselves practical. It's all good.

The Weekend Warrior

Others like to try some of the new stuff from the bullet/powder companies - if it fits their needs. They enjoy tinkering at the reloading bench on Saturdays because it's relaxing. Sometimes, they read magazines or go online looking for hunting or shooting articles. They are curious. From time to time, new components or rifles interest them because of the adventure and potential usefulness. They are the silent majority.

Member of the Camera Club

Then there are people who like to buy gadgets. They enjoy experimenting, but it doesn't consume them. They can be convinced to shoot past 100 or 200 yards. They are willing to try something new because, well, it looks cool! You might see them at gun shows, looking for used dies or accessories. Reloading is still a hobby, but it takes up more of their leisure time. They like talking with like minded people about how they can make their groups shrink. They usually are members of a few online outdoor forums.

The Obsessed

As you ascend the mountain, you see competitive shooters, LR hunters and beanfield varminters. They shoot at things that are far away and need accuracy. Whether it's prairie dogs, sheep, or x rings, to be able to dial in on what you're aiming at is very important. They are always looking for an edge and buy all the latest equipment. Listening to them can be like trying to understand someone who speaks a foreign language. They are always talking about spin drift, mirages and precession.

The Keyboard Ninjas

There is another group, but they are secretive. I left them for last. Certainly, they are not fun to have around. Some talk about owning LR equipment like March or NF scopes. They love to join in on conversations about the newest ELD bullet or top of the line cartridge. They can even be found poopooing the equipment choices of others. Some do not hunt. Most are full of negativity.

This last group has issues. Perhaps they cannot afford the high end stuff. They may not understand why some people like to shoot long range, or hunt deer, or punch holes in paper. But they can afford a computer and love to stir the pot. They obsess over teasing the other groups. For them, it's the thrill of upsetting others. Sadly, they cannot appreciate any of the groups.

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All these groups all have one thing in common. They don't understand any of the others.

It's all subjective, every last part of it....and because it's all subjective there is no wrong beyond the blatantly stupid and unsafe.

Runout, sub0.2gr charge weights, ES, ED are all indicators.

It’s not like our rifles and loads are multimillion industries with hundreds of employees that have to rely on indicators to work out how good they’re doing.

Just shoot the load at paper and see.

Of course if there is then a problem you can look but most time it’s more basic

What are E.S and S.D indicators of? Good group bad group? Vertical? Horizontal?

Possible "less good" group at greater distances.

For the average shooter, over average distances won't matter much at all. But over the longer distances say 500yds and beyond the highs and lows start to be come apparent. Here's a pretty decent article that get's into the effect:

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editori...eme-spread-and-standard-deviation/247510

I ran the numbers with Strelok Pro using my 6mm SLR data (think 6mmC +P) Berger 105 Hybrid (fictional load, my load has an SD of 7) and a 10MPH cross wind, same conditions. I used the high and low MVs for the fictional load.



So at 600 you're looking at 2.3" delta in drop and .5" less wind between the highs and lows in your ES.

At 1000 you're looking at 8.8" delta in drop and 1.4" in wind delta.

I don't think anybody has ever said that stats trump accuracy, just that for the longer distances it's better to have both good accuracy and stats.

That is completely false ive seen many 1,000 shot ladders that will prove it, go over to accurateshooter and look at ladders 1,000 BR shooters post it will prove it also. Target tells everything period, numbers don't.
I've shot more 1.5-2" triangle shape good groups at 700 with low teen to mid 20's with than I ever have single digit. I shot a 3 shot group once with my 30-28 all 3 shots were 3101fps and the group was 3" tall and 3/4 wide.

I watched a really good 1,000 BR shooter one day shooting 5 shot 890 yard 2.5 -4 " groups that were same shape as the size that were all high teens to mid 20's E.S

Got it, actual accuracy trumps stats.

The author of the article is listed, why don't you drop him a line and let him know. While you're at it, contact the folks at Berger and give them a piece of your mind:



https://bergerbullets.com/nobsbc/standard-deviation-of-bc-the-bell-curve/

Here's another one:

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/18/how-much-does-sd-matter/

It does a pretty good job of comparing ES and SD with hit probability. I'm positive the author of that one would love to hear about your experience as well.

You can believe all the articles you want i believe what I see with my own eyes and targets,there's plenty of guys who will disagree with Berger. Read Tony Boyer book not one word about E.S and S.D, does Eric Cortina ring a bell Hornandy claiming his tuners dont work ring a bell.
People need to test things for themselves or watch other really good precision shooters do testing.
I guess all these guys who win national championships and records are wrong and should listen to Berger and magazine articles and change the way they do things.

Go over to accurateshooter and tell all the guys they got it wrong because there S.D or numbers says so, ill come watch just let me know when you do

Theres plenty over there that have the hardware, records and championships to prove it.

I'm beginning to believe that reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.. am I correct?

As I said (IF you could comprehend) stats don't trump accuracy.

So, are you saying that good chrono stats are an indicator of poor accuracy? Or are you saying that achieving good chrono stats hinders accuracy?

Targets are definitely not your strong suit, ill be waiting on accurateshooter shooter to bring your arguments over there and tell those guys there all wrong
Stick is right on one thing you can tell who shoots and who just reads about it.

No, it’s not false. The “target” is a result of the physical systems, which can be described and modelled using math and numbers. The key to matching the theory with reality is to understand the physics and correctly model the system with numbers. It would be crazy to suggest that, if it were possible, bullets exiting the muzzle in exactly the same position and with exactly the same speed wouldn’t impact at exactly the same point (assuming identical atmospheric conditions).

I think you are misinterpreting the point being made. Speed is one variable that affects POI, but that doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the dominant variable, or that it can’t be somewhat offset by other variables. Muzzle position at the time of bullet release is another variable, and when people talk about “finding a node,” this is what they are referring to. Correctly timing bullet release at a certain point in the muzzle’s path of motion can largely offset any existing speed variation from shot to shot, but there is no doubt that minimizing speed variation helps and results in more consistent POI.

You mentioned Cortina. He is a proponent of the load development method in which you first tweak variables to minimize speed variation, and then tweak seating depth to time bullet exit correctly at an anti-node in the muzzle’s oscillatory motion.

Gotta make a new batch of popcorn................LOL.

MM

Kiss,find pressure and rock on,all of which was done,prior to mounting the scope. Hint.








Just sayin'..................

Ask Eric Cortina. Alex Wheeler, Jack Neary, Tony Boyer, John Whidden etc. if there gonna believe there target or computer, E.S- S.D #'s. Read up on positive compensation even Eric i believe in his Podcast with Alex Wheeler didn't believe in it untill recently.
What does Eric always say at the end of every podcast BELIEVE THE TARGET!!!