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I am looking for some information on Chief Lame Deer 🦌This would have been the Indian Chief that approached Arthur Savage about his savage rifles and offered him the Chief logo for discounted savage rifles!! Is there any good articles that can be read more in-depth on this???

I've been of the opinion that story is a tall tale. One problem with it, IMO, is the lack of documentation or any information that can be proven. Maybe some exists and I just haven't seen it. Thanks for asking the question, I would like to know more too!

Yes, a legend I’m afraid.

Arthur adopted an Indian logo very early on and it evolved over time.
Arthur had left Savage ~1904.
Savage continued to use a version of an Indian logo up until recently.
I think Lame Deer was a real person. Whether or not he intersected with Savage anywhere along the line is not certain.

The popular story goes that Arthur made a deal with Chief Lame Deer in 1919.

Obviously at least partially incorrect, that was 15 yrs after Arthur Savage left Savage.

Another story goes that Arthur Savage made a deal with one or more tribes for the use of likenesses in exchange for some rifles. That's possible from 1894 to 1904 - could have happened. No documentation has popped up. This would likely be the screaming indian that showed up on the 1905 catalog.

Another story is that Savage Arms entered into a deal with a local tribe to use an Indian as a logo - but actually had a Jewish man stand in as the model for the painter.

One apparently confirmed story is that Savage Arms was still paying out to 3 tribes in 2016 for rights to use an image. But when did that deal start is the question.

Truthfully.. I'm not even sure anybody at Savage knows the actual history of any agreements they had. Maybe the tribes would?

Was there a tribe associated with Chief Lame Deer?

Sioux

There may be seeds of truth within the Savage Indian stories.
Folks reference Ron Coburn statements "Ron Coburn had stated several times that these agreements were still active with at least three tribes (Cheyenne, Apache and Navajo) during his tenure as the CEO at Savage Arms."

Beyond that, 1919, Lame Deer, Lame Bear, John Fire Lame Deer may be parts of several stories that have blended together over the last 100 years. It's what story telling people do.

Arthur Savage adopted the "Savage" logo very early on.
Savage Arms retained the "Savage" logo that varied thru the years.
Additionally, Arthur Savage adopted the "Savage" logo for his tire venture.

Q:
Did Arthur have a deal with someone? Doubtful.
Did Savage Arms have a deal with someone? Sounds like probable.

Q:
Hey Ron, What is/was the nature of the referenced "agreements"? When? Who? Why?


From Savage Shooters:
I dug out my notes from when I was researching this several years ago rather than trying to rely on memory.

- In all but two instances, the chief referenced as having been the one to strike the deal with Savage is referred two as Chief Lame Deer. In the other two instances, one article text and one photo caption, he is referred to as Chief Lame Bear. Note the photo caption was on Savage's website history page back in the late 2000's.

- The front cover caption for the 1970 Savage Arms catalog reads as follows:

The Anniversary Model 1895 pictured on our cover is held by Lame Deer, a Chief and Medicine Man of the Sioux Nation. He is a grandson of the storied Chief Lame Deer, leader of the Sioux in the last stand against General Miles before his people were led to their reservation. When not in ceremonial dress, Lame Deer is known as John Fire. He served with distinction in World War II, is an excellent hunter and lives in South Dakota.
- In the 1996-1999 Savage Arms catalog we find the following...

One hundred years ago, a man named Arthur William Savage had the desire, vision and unique skill to offer the public a product that has since stood the test of time. In the early 1900's, the Cheyenne Indians approached Arthur to purchase Model 99 rifles for their Wyoming reservation and a deal was struck to trade firearms for product promotion. Over the next half century, the Cheyenne Indians participated in national trade shows and special product presentations, often in full ceremonial dress. The special relationship continues today and now includes the Apache and Navajo tribes.
- In another instance I found where Ron Coburn was interviewed and quoted as saying the chief and his tribe were from New York state.


Just from that little bit of information it's easy to see where all the confusion and uncertainty comes from. So what do we know/what can we prove?

1. Chief Lame Deer was a Lakota-Sioux chief that fought against General Miles and died at the age of 55 or 56 in May of 1877. (born in 1821)

2. John Fire is the grandson (or great-grandson?) of Chief Lame Deer and lived from 1903-1976

3. John Fire is the Chief Lame Deer who appears on the cover of the 1970 Savage Arms catalog and it is the same photo that is used beside the text in the 1996-99 catalogs.

4. Ron Coburn had stated several times that these agreements were still active with at least three tribes (Cheyenne, Apache and Navajo) during his tenure as the CEO at Savage Arms.

5. Savage Arms was using an Indian Head logo long before the claimed 1919 agreement, though the logo's were different as you can compare below.

And the new CEO (Al Kasper) after Coburn left also reiterated that Savage Arms had agreements with 3 tribes at a Shot Show to a reporter.

So I'd take the fact that Savage had agreements as pretty solid facts. How far back those agreements go would be interesting to know, and exactly what the payments were for.

Thank you - This is the type of information I was looking for. The Facebook group just didnt help very much.

Thank you - just the type of info I was looking for.

I could see paying John Fire for his appearance in the catalogs. Paying the other three tribes might have been just to keep things peaceful while continuing to use the Savage logo and would be a write off.

All good info. Thanks, Rick.

The strange part for me is that the "official" narrative from Savage Arms back in the day references Arthur, 1919 and Chief Lame Deer.
Just seems like a rookie error by Savage as those people & dates cannot possibly line up. And it appears those comments were made many years later.
Bailey's opinion of Arthur, 1919 and Chief Lame Deer? Laughable.

The 1969 catalog shows Roger Littlehorn. Mohawk.
Littlehorn was an activist for Native American rights.
Obviously got paid for the '69 catalog work. Possibly other/extended tribal payments as well. ??



The 1970 catalog shows John Fire Lame Deer. Lakota Sioux.
Lame Deer too was an activist for Native American rights. Possibly other/extended tribal payments as well. ??
John Fire Lame Deer



I would venture to guess these are the "agreements/payments" referenced by Ron Coburn/Savage Arms.
A more modern era thing vs. the Arthur, 1919, Lame Deer stories that are popular, but unproven.