Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 221 FB or 20 VT

Looking for experience on both. I know they are obviously very different, but I’d like to hear pros and cons of each. I was dead set on a 221 to round out my 22 cal varmint rifles, but I started reading on the VarTarg and I’m kinda leaning towards it. The rifle will be on a Howa mini, 24” heavy varmint barrel and Stockys stock for shooting varmints and p-dogs off a bench. Any input is welcomed and appreciated!

Well, I don’t have a 20VT…..YET!

But I too bought a how’s mini for the exact same reason. I’ve been shooting a FB for several years. LOVE IT. mines a 700 classic and though it doesn’t shoot the 40gr tipped bullets as well as I’d like it clumps 50BT’s and vmax into tight clusters. It’s one of my favorite rifles for walking through dog towns. I also have a much heavier 20 practical built by Jim Borden that has become my favorite gun for shooting pdogs off the bench. It’s stupid accurate with 39BK’s and shoots “through the wind” as well as a 22-250 but allows me to see the misses which doesnt happen often with that rifle. I love the idea of the VT and though I don’t have one yet I plan on building one also. I’ll let

Oops…

I’ll let the rifle tell me what it likes but will have a barrel twist fast enough to shoot the various 39&40 gr bullets. Mine will probably have a 22” medium weight varmint barrel just because I like lighter easier carrying rifles.

I’m not trying to steer you away from the 20VT…. I’m planning on building one too. But if you’re planning on a bench gun have you thought about the 20P? Way more 223 brass out there and it’s way cheaper than 221 brass. It shoots harder. I can still see my hits with mine through a 20x scope and all I had to do was buy a bushing for my 223 neck die. I use my Redding 223 comp seater as is.

Good luck on your build. Keep us posted please.

Also, midway had 221 brass in stock a few days ago.

I've had 4- 20VT whittled myself down to 3 theres nothing not to like about them. Buy a Type S FL sizing die use a. 226-.227 bushing with Nosler or neck turned reformed brass in a .232-233 ,nk chamber 11Tw barrel running 32-40 grain bullets AA2200 powder 7.5 primers and no problem with .5 moa accuracy most instances even better

Thanks for the info! I have a 204 that I put together with a 26” full contour criterion barrel. With scope and everything, it weighs just a bit over 16 lb. That thing is sweet for still seeing your hits or misses. It don’t move when you pull the trigger. I’m kind of leaning towards the VT since I didn’t plan on shooting anything but 40 gr out of the 221 anyway. If I do an 11t like sherm said, I can cover that bullet weight in 20cal too.

Do you run the nosler brass? Is it any good?

No I haven't I know people who do with no complaints, its probably like other Nosler brass a little soft so if you run it to hot PP will open up.
My brother runs RP 221 and I make my own from LC 223 brass. Czkid on accurateshooter sells 20VT brass from LC223 everybody that has used says its good

I have heard of feeding problems with the FB sized cases UNLESS it was originally a FB action. I was going to build a repeater on a 700 short action, but abandoned the project after researching it.

Always thought a 20 VT would be a sweet 300 yard gun…

221FB for me. Easier to find brass, 22cal bullet selection is plentiful, and about 19g of RL7 and a 40g bullet tends to shoot very well in a variety of rifles. However, The only bullet that has polluted the bore of my CZ is the 40g NBT, and it kills like lightning.

A great action for the Fireball is the Sako L461/AI. These work like they were made for the Fireball. I've done 3 of them now.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DJD34RelNpA

Easier to find brass? What brass is a 20VT?

Ummmmmm....221.


Then what do you have to do? Run it through a 20vt die. As opposed to just loading and shooting.

Its exactly what you do run it through a die and load and shoot. Isn't that what you do with every cartridge?

Between the two, I’d go .221, as .22 is just easier, and I’d also consider a .222 for its great accuracy and maybe its tradition. As a practical matter though, I find it difficult to depart from the .223 among the smaller .22s. It’s the easiest of all in just about every way, and does all I need, and could even replace my little Hornet (but won’t, ever!).

Have fun.

Ky221, that rifle is a beauty!

I have both but the .221 sees much more use. Hard to beat the Fireball!

I've had no feeding issues. A 527 action feed and extracts fine. Theres can be an extraction with a 700 not really an extraction issue but more of extraction timing.
Doesn't bother me with a 700 because I shoot mine single shot, if you want to run a repeater use the correct follower and get an sako extractor installed.
As to " easier" dont you run a case through the die, seat a primer, charge a case and seat a bullet in a 221 just like any other case? Maybe some struggle reloading i don't know.
As far as accuracy a 20VT will shoot with anything out there all being equal.
I guess some wanna make do about nothing.
A 20VT is nothing more than a necked down 221FB.

Model 700’s originally in 222/223 won’t feed or eject a 221 case if rechambered.
I have 221 in a 700 lvsf and I cannot think of a time where I have grabbed it over a 222 or 223. It’s neat but purposeless imo. A 20VT? Never tried one, likely never will. My 204 Rugers collect enough dust.

Yes they will, how do you know you don't have one ohhh wait internet talk.
I've got 2 to prove you wrong, one is a 20SCC which is a 20VTAI.
All the 20VT naysayers that dont even have one imagine that.

What amazes me is when somebody wants to build something people wanna shoot it down because of this that or the other. I guess some should just shoot a BB gun.

I had one I bought as a mess. 223 700 converted to a 221 FB. It operated as a single shot flicking the brass out with a jackknife. I had it reamed to 222 Rem Mag. Now it’s something. Burning 4 grains more powder never shot so good.

You said it " a mess" right tools for the job is the answer.
I guess we all should just shoot 22's and drive Fords it would be easier. For fugg sake.

What amazes me is that dip$hit$ can’t handle someone else’s opinion when asked. Build a hairdryer for all I give a [bleep].

If your had to dig your 221 cases out with a jacknife it was a brass issue, a 221 FB brass are nothing more than shortened 222 or 223 brass which the ejector picks up fine

Then resort to name calling I LOVE IT.
stick is right some shoot and some dont.
You opinion makes no sense, every cartridge you just mentioned i have so I have an honest opinion if you can't handle that YOUR PROBLEM.

The cases extracted but didn’t eject clear. I thought I mentioned that. There was no brass issue. It was the length of the case being too short, and the apparent ejector location on the 700 bolt face.

Rem 700 will work with a FB case if they came that way from Remington.

Pic of the mess. Now fixed and proper

You obviously didn't read what I posted either about a 700 that a correct follower and sako extractor because of extraction timing.
I would never use a factory 700 anymore on anything now a days a mac bros action is alot more bang for the buck, no primary extraction issues, sloppy firing pin hole or extraction issues.
Doesn't matter what cartridge you use if you dont have the correct metal it won't feed period.

Yeah I stopped reading most of your garbage after your first sentence. Verbal diarrhea.

Typical fire B.S when dont know what there talking about, first O.P wants to use a Howa action that has what kind of extractor? second he never even asked about a repeater,
now who is spewing Verbal diarrhea from one who has never owned a 20VT?

Owned 2 model 700s in 221 fb. An LVSF, and a model 700 LS.

Neither ejected worth a dam. They extracted fine. But instead of kicking the empties out, they just flipped it backward into the ejection port on top of the other rounds. Loaded rounds eject fine. But empties turn the rifle into a single shot. You would have to fish the case out. Fine if punching paper or shooting varmints but always a [bleep] for a calling rifle when you need a fast second shot.

This isn't even up for debate and the reason my 221 is a CZ. I love a model 700, but not in the fireball length cases.

Thank ya sir.

Man this place got aggressive lol. Thanks for all the input so far. I’m set on using the Howa mini action that I have. Everything I have read and watched says it works perfectly with the 221/17 fireballs. I’m starting to lean towards the VT. I have a 222 rem and several 223s. I have a 204 so maybe maybe a small 20 cal cartridge would fit best. And yes I do plan on it being a repeater. Thanks again for all the input.

Advice was requested, and offered.

Quote: Any input is welcomed and appreciated!

Comprehension is optional around here.

Ky221: I have absolutely NO issues with my Remington 700 in 221 Remington Fireball!
It functions just fine and shoots quite well indeed.
Mine is the Remington 700 Class
Loading, extraction, ejection all perform as one would want in my gun - I have another friend with a 700 Classic in 221 Remington Fireball and his performs as expected also.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

You and your varmint pal got the only two that do then.
Because 700s and fireballs are notorious for the issue stated above.

As I mentioned on the varmint sub forum....

Ran a 20 VT right at 15 yrs...Pac Nor 12 twist...26" tube & 1" at muzzle

Strictly a portable table gun for p/dogs...Savage SS SA solid bottom s/shot action & Accue trigger

Retired it at an estimated 10K rds down the tube about 2 yrs ago

Beauty of the Savage action...pull ejector pin so you're not chasing brass

20 VT is much faster & flatter than the 221 FB.....20 cal 40 V Max vs the .224 50 V Max

Forming brass & dies are as easy as the 20 Practical...another fine cartridge

Long live the 20 Vartarg......Yes.....I did have a 221 FB in a CZ Varmint ...long gone

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/20caliber/#20VARTARG

When did CZ chamber the fireball in the 527 Varmint?
I only ever saw it on the American?

I had a 527 204 varment that I set back to a 20VT that dot great, feed and ejected just fine.

Some can get them to work because its called gunsmithing work.

Since you already have the .222 and .223 covered, I wouldn't think that a .221 FB would bring too much to the table that you weren't already getting with those first two. Then I read that you have a .204 and I'm thinking that the .20 VT is going to be real similar there too.

You didn't ask, but why not a little .17 FB then? Finding factory .221 FB for my Cooper is near non-existent, but the .17 FB factory ammo is around in lots of places.

I thought about a 17 FB but I already have a 17 Remington that I hate reloading for due to small bullets and fat fingers lol.

No experience with the 20 VarTarg yet. The 221 Fireball has been nice to be sure. Yet I got the bug this winter & ordered a drop in 20 Vartarg barrel for a CZ 527. Look forward to comparing the 17 Fireball, 20 Vartarg & the 221 fireball. Expect all good choices depending on the application.

All ya need is the Redding 221 FB bushing neck die & correct sized bushing

Forster 221 FB seater (or Redding)

Redding or Forster 221 FB FL die

Brass........

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018049354?pid=799821

I think I have asked on here a few moons back but is there much going for a .20/222??

Get a wilson inline blank and have seater one made with a reamer and drop the bullet down through were the seating stem is no problemo

depends

Trying to 'member back on my 20-222 history

Original chamber was a 20BR......4000 fps...(9 twist)

Ran 1200 rds or so......got bored with it (need a 50 gr V Max)

Sent it back to Pac-Nor & rechambered to 20-222

Prob one of my fav dog guns...running 40 V Max

Savage Target action.....Vortex PST glass

Only current pic I have

A 40 should be pretty flat shooting.

I wonder what velocity one would run out of a 24" barrel.

3500 should be easily doable, 3700 with a 32-34 is what I run in my 24" Barrels with AA2200

From a 20-222?

Sorry I meant a 20VT but the 20-222 will probably be a little faster.

👍🏻

Thinkin'


222 brass may be more available than the 221 FB brass

Dies are just as easy too

Sherm
3700 + is what I get with CFEBLK. 2 Cooper 38's. They both shoot less than 1/2MOA.
204 used to be my favorite. V MAX shoot fine but I get more air with Blitzkings.

Spot on boatammo. CZ kid has got a bunch of 20VT brass made from LC223 on accurateshooter and saubier its good brass its what I make my own out of.
20VT brass is out there you just gotta look in the right places.

I have quite a bit of 222 brass, Remington and Winchester for my 222.

Would like to find some Lapua 222 brass but they have suspended production of quite a bit of brass that is generally available to the public.

I just think a little .20 would be fun.

Nosler is making 222 Rem Mag brass now. It’s decent. An 222 RM ackley would blow your skirt up I bet. 40’s at 4000? Probably.

Or just do a 22-204. Kind of sort of an AI of sorts.

I have a .20 VT on a TC Original Contender. MGM 23" heavy barrel. When I started with the cartridge all I could find was .17 FB cases and necked them up. Was a pain since I had to do some turning at the neck/shoulder junction. With my chamber, a simple neckdown of R-P .221 brass in a Redding FL size die gets me shooting. I did a bunch of fireforming of the .17 cases with 26 grain Barnes VG. Was accurate enough for killing gophers but nothing to write home about and was surprised out how non-explosive a lot of the hits were.

I have a pile of Accurate LT-30 on hand (and Hodgdon has data for it) so been trying that in my formed brass. Best accuracy with the 32 Nosler VG has been near book max. Hodgdon says 18 grains for the 32 grain Lead-Free...I am shooting the FBHP and have tested from 17.6-18.0. 6 groups (mostly 5 shots) and then tested 18.0 grains at four depths. 48 shots average 0.699". The best groups were .345-.55". My final load was 18 grains of LT-30 at 1.760" with a CCI400. I had some chrono issues and need to see what it is doing but guessing in the 3600-3650 range. Some earlier testing showed an above book 18.7 grains at 3752 with that bullet.

I am guessing some improvement is possible with alternative bullets (40 grain VMax is next on the list), powders, primers and depths but thinking right now with gophers popping out I would rather shoot critters than paper. May do some more testing with the 32s and 40s later this summer. Will dig around to see if I have some AA 2200 as that should add some FPS and sounds like it is working well for others accuracy wise.

One other thing... I have a .223 Howa mini that I am thinking about building a Fireball based rifle on. With the Oregun hinged floorplate I couldn't get Fireball cases to feed. I switched to the JO CZ 527 bottom metal and with 223 mags it will feed .20 VT fair. I think I can improve it some with tweaking of the feed lips. I just tried it with a CZ 527 .221FB mag and it wouldn't feed worth a crap....go figure. I am not worried because I plan to use it for colony varmints and a "Bobsled" block converts it to a single shot and those work great in the minis with the 527 Bottom metal.

Would the 20-222 work through a Rem fireball action? Would it eject or would the fired brass try to eject to soon and end up back in the action?