Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Resistance loading a shell in a rifle.

So reloading for 308 cal which I have done for many years but just recently got back into reloading'
So using a Lee Reloader which only neck size. Why do I have some reloaded ammo give me resistance cambering into my rifle?
These have been fire form in same rifle. Do I have my Lee sizing die mal-adjusted and resizing too much of the cartridge neck?

My first guess it’s time to PFLR and bump the shoulder back. Need the ability to FL resize for that.

Yep. Most likely headspace issue. Bump the shoulders back and should be good. If not next I would check your seating depth and make sure your not jamming hard in the lands

How many loadings of that brass with the Lee Loader?

Gonna try backing off a bit. Funny thing is that it is not with every shell.

Approximately 3, playing with reloads.

That is not unusual at all. Individual pieces of brass will “spring back” a different amount.

Also, might be getting to the point where the brass needs annealed.

Redding Body die would take care of that issue.

If they make a 338 Federal Body Die, you could size the cases giving you problems without disassembling the loaded rounds.

And annealing after every firing usually gets laughed at, but not by the guys that do it to avoid this very issue......

When I used a Lee Loader many years ago, I found that FL sizing was necessary every 4-5 loads.

Full length resize every time. Annealing is not necessary, there are 10’s of thousands of rounds in that pile and years of shooting and reloading, not one case has been annealed.

The idea that neck sizing saves you anything is proven that it doesn’t when you can’t get your reloads into your chamber and close the bolt…

I don't neck size anything, but I've found annealing does what it's supposed to do.

10's of thousands of cases fired once or twice is not the same as a couple few hundred fired dozens.

I'll judge what's necessary for myself......

Choose all you want, you won’t shoot in a lifetime what I do in a year. Once or twice on any of that brass was over 30 years ago…

Yeah, ok.

It’s ok to anneal, but could you tell me how long it would take to anneal and load that much ammunition?

I have a better question....

What is your "tens of thousands" of rounds of ammo, and what is it for? That would determine if annealing would be beneficial. For example, I have a stock pile of reloaded 556 ammo and a metric ass load more to reload. In fact, i just bought a Dillon to do it. Not a single round will be annealed because if it's ever needed it's just gonna lay on the ground and stay there.

I have a very hard time believing that "tens of thousands" of rounds are fired dozens of times every year as you say, but, whatever. And besides, I'm betting very heavy odds that your "pile" is outside the scope of the context of the OP, and of my response to the OP. Maybe you're just seeing an opportunity to brag up on your "pile". I dunno.

This video explains it.

Just answer the first question…

It is 6:40 AM here, this is guns and ammo for the day we will be shooting. It isn’t about how much ammunition you have it’s about how much you shoot and reload. The original question was about a hard closing of reloaded ammunition and I addressed it with full length resizing, which does work, this is just the evidence of such.

"Shot it all and then some".....right?

IMHO the bolded is key, it comes down to task and purpose which shapes your accuracy requirements. For instance, my 3gun ammo loaded on a Dillon 650, doesn't have the same requirements as my precision ammo.

I'm a fan of annealing, but I also like good chrono stats on my ammo used in precision rifles.

FL sizing will cure the headspace issues, but it will also shorten brass life if your chamber is oversized. I much prefer to size to fit a couple .001s under my chamber size.

Not going to claim to shoot 10s of 1000s of rds a year, but since we're showing pictures, this is my backyard:







I have 400 and 547yds off my back deck, full range goes out to 760yds.

My BC1000 can do around 300rds an hr.

Nice set up Chuck R. I have more than few .223's bolts and ar's I have found that using a case gauge on each case is the only way they will fit in any gun I own. Mb

THANKS!

It's been a work in progress for a while now.

And for those days when I don't feel like making the long commute:







Of course, it doesn't prove chit, I could just be plinking and only go through a couple hundred rds annually..

Shrap,
The reason I anneal is because it seems to make the springback more consistent, not always, but most of the time.

When you say FL, are you actually PFLR’ing?

Bob,

I use basically the same method, I size to each chamber, using a Redding FL bushing sizing die. The sizing die is set up to FL size, but I back it off the appropriate amount to fit each chamber using die shims. I record the bushing used and die shim with that "lot" of ammo for that rifle.

I prefer to strip bolts and use "feel" to get my sizing, but do have a set of gauges (Horn and Sinclair).

I do the same with other rifles that I have in the same caliber. I also have a couple friends that come over to load with the same calibers, so a combination of shims and competition seating dies makes it a lot easier than constantly adjusting things.

I’m not sure what P is, but I do full length resize. Annealing is another process that you can certainly participate in. I choose not to and for that reason, just tried to establish how it isn’t always necessary. Back to the amount of ammunition, a person shoots if you had to the amount of cases that I shoot, you wouldn’t have time to shoot because you would be annealing.

what resizing lube do you use in your full length resizing die ? that`s the part i kinda hate is the each brass case clean up. thanks ,Pete53

That's the nature of neck sizing. Essentially each firing the case gets closer and closer to exact chamber size and it gets harder and harder to close the bolt. There probably is an accuracy gain, minute, but is it worth it if you have to fight the rifle to load every cartridge? Instead, I use a FL sizer die but I don't crank it clear down, instead, I set it up to kiss the shoulder and push back ever so slightly keeping the case dimensions the same every time whether it's the 2nd shot or the 22nd shot.

I see no need to neck size. Absolutely never in a hunting or varmint rifle. In a match rifle, I want bushing dies, not a neck sizer, for better accuracy yet. Then depending on the rifle's needs, a separate body die and shoulder / bump die.

Partial Full Length Resizing vs Full Length Resizing.

Sounds like you are using PFLR. Just bumping the shoulder back enough so the brass easily fits the chamber.

I use NK sizing or PFLR, depends on the brass and the particular chamber. When NK sizing eventually a guy does have to bump the shoulder back.

Very well could just be dirty.

The confusion about sizing terms is cropping up again. When I use a FL die to produce .002" shoulder setback from as fired dimensions, the neck, the shoulder and the body, i.e. the full length of the brass, has been sized. So that is full length sizing, set up to suit a particular chamber. That's what some call partial full length sizing, a bit of an oxymoron. They use the term full length sizing for reducing the case to like new dimensions, or nearly so, so it'll fit in any chamber that comes along.

Agree. I use rifle specific brass, but have never had an issue with a Lee collet die, and Redding body die to bump shoulders when necessary. I don't redline my loads, so bumping shoulders happens fairly seldom. Works for me anyway.

For the first 50 years of handloading nobody seemed confused by FL vs PFLR sizing. But sometime when I wasn’t looking confusion has apparently set in…

FL sizing is sizing the brass as much as the FL die will allow, which generally entails the ram touching the die and/or completely camming over.

PFLR is usually stopping short of touching the die with the ram, with the brass into the die just enough to bump the shoulder back. That’s not completely sizing the brass to the FL die’s ability.

Sizing brass back to original dimensions generally requires a small base die.

I'll agree to disagree.

Mathman, I think you and I are in agreement with the older definition of partial full length resizing which was really just neck sizing with a full length die without bumping the shoulder at all. Somewhere over the past few years it has started being used to describe minimal shoulder bumps by what are perhaps newer reloaders or a regional thing.

I've seen crossover in the meaning for a while. Maybe I'm just being pedantic calling it full length sizing when the full length gets sized, however much or little.

I agree, we're did this "partial" come from?

Bob Hagel used the partial resizing terminology as I described it above back in the 80s, if not earlier.

I agree that is partial sizing with a FL die, but sizing the whole case is FL sizing no matter if its .001 or more, your sizing the whole case.

Google ampmate with Dillon feeder.

I agree. I full length size with a .002 bump. Some refer to that as partial full length sizing, which I do not consider the historical or correct use for that term. Of course I've been wrong before, just ask my wife.🙂

I guess I dont get the your not FL sizing untill you touch the shell holder then its FL sizing. Ive got 3 sets of dies that didn't bump the shoulders at all untill I took .010 off the top of the shell holder.

There have been dozens, yes plural, of discussions on this subject since many of participated at "Shooters".

PFL sizing has been used to describe sizing brass to less than the full capacity of the FL die since I have been here. We have even discussed the fairly common phenomenon where head space to shoulder is actually increased when the body of the case is compressed without touching the shoulder as a possibility when PFL sizing.

I have Redding neck sizers for several cartridges. I have never needed a body die to go with them. But the only one I ever loaded brass more then four or five times was a 30-06 AI, and it did not show a propensity to grow.

Yes, I tune my FL dies to the chamber of the rifle I am sizing for.

I find that point where the bolt will not close on the partially sized case, as I have made the case longer in the die. Then I adjust the die down in the press until the bolt will close on the empty brass again. Sometimes with a very slight crush fit, depending on application. Usually adjusted so the brass will fall into the chamber.

I have all the tools needed to measure headspace length, growth, or compression for any of the cartridges I load. But they have set unused on the shelf for years. As I do not really care what the length from shoulder to base of the brass, as long as I know it fits my chamber, because I have made it to fit.

And yes, it requires case lube. Sometimes it is Hornady one shot, sometimes it is Redding/Imperial wax. i keep microfiber wash cloths from harbor freight on the loading bench, and 91% isopropyl alcohol. Splash a little alcohol on a cloth, and wipe the sizing lube away. A pint of alcohol lasts a long time. When the cloth looks grubby, toss it into the laundry.

What would be the correct meaning of the term: PFL sizing?

One can size a case to the full extent of which the FL die is capable.

Or one can size to a portion of what the FL die is capable.

If one is sizing to less than the full capability of the die, it seems partial sizing is an apt description.

Folks seem to misinterpret "Partial" as meaning to size only part of the case. But Partial Full Length Sizing seems to suggest one sizes the entire case, just not as much as it can be sized with a FL die.

I can remember in the 80's when PFLR became a thing and virtually every magazine had articles describing how instead of the usual method contained in most die instructions, one didn't size the case as much by not running the ram all the way to a hard stop or camming over, instead stopping somewhere short of that method was only partially full length sizing the die.

One can full length size the brass, but not size it as far as it can be sized by the die.

Peace



Meawhile poor marzoom just wants to know why his brass does't fit easily in the chamber.........

The Hornady manual I purchased in 1978 refers to full length sizing for minimum headspace. In any case its just a matter of semantics. I would suggest that those who only neck size keep the bolt lug faces well greased.

neck sizing only without bumping shoulders will lead to exactly as the OP stated . annealing every time will help but annealing really helps mostly with consistent neck tension. and the shoulder still should be bumped at least every two or three firings.. I too learn this the hard way years ago.

Depends on the brass and sometimes the chamber.
I can’t ever recall needing to bump the shoulder with WW brass until 2, 3, or 4 firings. But my Lapua brass needs bumped after every firing. This includes both brands of brass fired in the same rifle.

See page 42 in Nosler manual #6. I know PFLR is described in other manuals also, but this is the first one I pulled off the shelf.

There you go adding references to the discussion. That ain't fair.

Partial full, jumbo shrimp, ...

Don’t forget popcorn shrimp—that’s just neck sizing….

Hahaha. This has been a very interesting read so far but guess I should add to the way I resize.

I do both, FL and NS. For FL i am using RCBS dies and die set about 1/2 to 3/4 turn back from touching shell holder. NS is as said with a Lee reloader hand tool which is what is giving me issues at mention in my original post. I will back adjust this one next time I reload as an experiment.
For hunting, usually FL. Neck sizing is new to me actually.

Really appreciate all the comments. Thank you.

My Nolser manual is their #2, but I'll take your word for it. I'll stick with a FL sizing at .002 bump. Dusty here in Arizona.

.002 is what I usually aim for too when PFLR’ing.

Snow is melting here in Colorado, mud season is just around the corner…..

Page 31, Nosler #2.

The page you added and referenced describes leaving a 1/16" gap at the shellholder. That's not bumping the shoulder, only sizing the neck and case body sides ( to some degree)

I have dies that will bump the shoulder without the shellholder touching the die. Depends on the rifle’s chamber and brand/lot of brass. Most of the time the shell holder is indeed touching die though.

You should inform Nosler what they are describing is neck sizing with a FL die…..

The 1/16" shellholder gap mentioned in your referenced page is .0625" a typical max vs. min headspace range is .008". How is a die set with that gap that going to touch the shoulder?

Is it describing the same thing as this?

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/partial-sizing-of-brass

Theres not a manual or die instruction that tells you how to set up dies properly anyway except 1 set of dies and that's Whiddens because they come with a comparator.
The old screw it down untill it touches the shell holder and back it off a 1/4 turn was probably when dies were invented and still are the same so I guess nothing changes in time.
If I set my dies up like that some brass wouldn't let the bolt close or have resistance or have case separations, its exactly why belted cases got a bad rap from case separation setting the dies up by die instructions instead of ignoring the belt and instructions and just bumping them like a non belted case.
Just save yourself some headache and FL size bumping the shoulder .002-.003 everytime and call it good.

Using die shims and either a comparator insert or stripped bolt sizing for feel, I normally average around a .004 -.010" shim under the die to get my headspace from the standard die set up instructions.

I normally don't worry about bumping until the 3rd or 4th firing, when I start to get resistance.

Sierra has this to say about it:


https://www.sierrabullets.com/reload-basics/resizing-depriming/

So it looks like Sierra leans towards "it's all FLS, but with the die adjusted properly"

Adjusting the full length die so it moves the shoulder a couple of thousandths results in the full length of the case being sized, so that's full length sizing. Adjusting the full length die so it sizes the brass down as much as it can, that is to the full capability of the die, should then be called fully full length sizing. FFLS

Voila! No more "partial full" nonsense.

There you go.
PFLR and FFLS.

It accurately describes the distinction between the two.

You're hanging onto that partial full self contradiction.

No disrespect, but it is like being pregnant or not being pregnant, there is no partial in it. I full length resize as recommended by the RCBS instructions to screw the resizing die to touch the shell plate, drop the ram and turn the die DOWN 1/8 of a turn to get full length resized.

All the drama that has happened since the initial post, muddies up the water. Those that are afraid to FLR and want to just neck size to insure brass to last, don’t really need to worry, I was shooting brass I have shot over and over through my 223 yesterday, that I made from military brass decades ago when I couldn’t afford commercial brass.

If you are going to hunt with your reloads, you had better full length resize and then run those rounds through your rifle to make sure you don’t have any bolt closing problems.

I also have as many as 5 different rifles in each cartridge, so it is good practice to FLR, so that those cartridges will work in all rifles. As was mentioned a couple times, a body die will also reduce your loaded cartridge to factory specs and it is amazing how those reloaded rounds will fit like a factory round.

Don’t be afraid to full length resize…

I do not follow those directions. I can full length size my brass enough for smooth and easy chambering while moving the brass a lot less than what those directions will do for my brass, dies and chambers.

I shoot a number of 308 Winchester chambered rifles, have a half dozen or so full length dies, and several shell holders. Taken individually, all are within spec. Nevertheless, by choosing the right chamber, die and shell holder I can generate a combination that will produce head separations sooner than later using the generic RCBS instructions.

That is fine, but be aware that the amount of reloading I have done with that method has not produced the separation that many are afraid of. You will also find one chamber is more forgiving than 5…

5?

I have nine 308 rifles and load for several others. I load to suit each one.

You won’t quit will you? Having several sets of dies vs 1 set that works for all the different chambers isn’t the same.

See what you can find wrong with that…

You're misinterpreting why I have several full length dies.

It doesn't matter which die use. There's enough difference between the long and short chambers that no matter the die, I prefer to set it differently to properly size the brass.

So you're basically using a FL die, set up "properly" to give you the amount of bump you want per individual rifle.. rather than go through the trouble of adjusting your die per rifle correct?

I see the logic in it.

That's not it. I adjust dies all the time, it's easier than it's made out to be.

Over time I've collected the various dies and learned how they work the brass, so I may then select the die depending on which effect I wish to achieve.

For example, I have a Forster with it's neck section honed to be a good fit with thicker brass like Lapua, Lake City, Federal and so on. For thinner necked brass I have an RCBS that's a good fit. Same for a Redding I picked up along the way. If I wish to bring the case body diameter and taper closer to like new dimensions (without shortening the headspace dimension too much) I have a Hornady die that's just the ticket. I've got a Lee that will squeeze them down to near new in all dimensions.

I should add that I rarely use the expander ball with any of them.

Got it, makes sense.

I don't use die expander balls either. I use a combination of neck bushings and expander mandrels.

OK I have some brass that will not chamber, question, do I need a body die or can I use my FL die to bump the neck back? and what stage do I resize the neck to load a bullet?

You dont " bump" the neck back its the shoulder on the datum line.
I suggest you get a comparator the size you need for specific caliber snd watch Alex Wheelers strip bolt method its on his website Wheeler Accuracy.

I started reloading 51 years ago, always FL sized with never a problem. Neck sizing became the rage and I bought NS dies, had problems so I went back to FL sizing and problems went away. Never have annealed, don't see any need to. I trim cases to SAAMI specs and seat bullets to SAAMI O.A.L. spec too. Always been able to find an accurate load without fooling with seating depth.

If I put 8 ounces of beer in a sixteen ounce mug, is it not partially full?

Or, are you a partially empty kind of guy?

MM, are then using a LCD on the necks?

No, those dies size the necks. I typically use a Lyman M-die or mandrel die. Or no expansion at all for certain brass thicknesses in the right dies.

The mug is partially filled.

No, the mug is too small…

Forsters sort of hints at it:



https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/instructions/full_length_sizing_die_instructions.pdf

I do the same with some of the bushing dies, no need to expand.

That’s what I meant. We understand the FL die sans the expander assembly sizes brass including the neck. I was wondering how, when needed, if you used the LCD mandrel die to size the necks up to get your desired neck tension.

Why not use a body die, then use a LCD or the Lyman M-die? Or are you just using the FL dies because that’s what youhave on hand?

I don’t have a M-die so I don’t really know how they work.

I also use collet dies, bushing dies, body dies.

I mostly use A and B settings.

A set of Redding competition shell holders is a good investment. Typically I find 4 things cause hard chambering. Not enough sizing, or not sizing from just neck sizing, not trimming brass, bullet OAL too long and is in the lands and lastly case bases that are not sized enough as many dies don't size down the case far enough. This can benefit from a trip through a 45 sizing die for .473 case head rounds.

Maybe we need to come up with a new naming convention. "Partial full" and "fully full" both signal that the train has left the tracks.

lol……..