Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns What would cause this type of FTF?

I have a DA/SA Sig P232 .380 that I load for. I'm having trouble with the last batch of ammo I loaded for it where about every 3rd or so round will not fire on the first trigger pull, but will always fire on the re-strike (2nd pull). Examining a round that fails to fire on the first pull usually shows a very faint firing pin indention. All the the rounds fit in a go/no-go gauge, though some of them I have to tap the gauge on the bench for them to fall back out. Bullets are 90 gr. Sig V-crown.

Any ideas what might be going on?

Maybe the primers aren't seated deep enough?

I'm about ready to say eff-it and go back to a danged revolver!

Either the round is not headspacing properly in the chamber. Maybe due to a bulge, or the primers have not been seated deep enough. Very small cases. Extra care is needed in handling. Magnifying glass, finger touch, extra light etc..

In American slang FTF is failure to feed.
You seem to have intermittent ignition failure. I would clean firing pin channel using airbrush cleaning brushes and replace firing pin spring and firing pin safety spring.

Easy check is to disassemble the gun and drop the rounds into the chamber. Short rounds that can’t be reached by the firing pin will fall past where the breach would be if they are the proper length.

First thing i would do is clean firing pin and hammer with a degreaser, something like Gun Scrubber.... and then test it...

There's places that TOO much lubricant is a bad thing....

I've cleaned the [bleep] out of it. And it is hammer-fired. And it only happens with my reloads, not factory ammo.

This was my thought, too.

What would cause short rounds, since the .380 round headspaces on the case mouth? None of the brass has been trimmed.

Yes.

Upon the initial firing new brass also usually shortens a bit.

Hornady ammo?

You could also be applying too much taper on the crimp, creating a short headspace condition.

Do you have the same problem with factory loads? If so, I would focus on the gun. If factory loads work well, it’s more likely something in your loading technique that’s causing the problem.

-cases too short and they’re going far enough into the chamber to keep the firing pin from reaching the primers. Were they trimmed?
-maybe having the seating die turned down far enough to slightly crimp the case mouths and again keeping the firing pin from reaching the primers.
-it could be that you have expanded or flared the case mouths too much and the flare is preventing the cases from fully chambering.
-some primers seated too deeply. Hold a straight edge across the case head so you have light reflecting off the primers to see if the primers look like they’re seated uniformly.

Mixed headstamp brass, obtained from a local range.

I thought brass typically lengthened after it was resized.

What brand of primers are you using?, and are you seatings them firmly.

Try a Lee carbide factory crimp die. If your loaded ammo is a bit over spec diameter wise it may not seat all the way and proved a cushioning effect the first, try to fire.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011209519?pid=668253

It can, but the plug is expanding it again.

I would check overall length after sizing and expanding and make sure they are within spec.

Straight wall ammo tends to shorten when resized.

I would agree with a couple others above.

My first thought would be you’re putting too much taper crimp on so they go too far into the chamber. When I reload auto pistol ammo I taper crimp to a dimension across the case mouth for this reason.

The other place I’d look for problems is primer seating depth. It sounds like your first try is pushing the primer down to where it’s supposed to be so the second shot fires it.

CCI. I primed them on the press, which I usually don't do - usually hand-prime. So I'm thinking that's likely the issue.

I did use a FCD.

I'm not going to do anything until I fire some more and I will pick out the ones that don't fire on the first strike and do some measuring and see how they are different than the others.

If a primer fires on the 2nd attempt, the problem is that the primer is not seated deep enough.

OR

The firing pin channel needs cleaning.

But it is usually the primer seating. CCI has a harder cup than WSP - the WSP are easier to seat.

Do this, at least. Check all your loaded rounds' primers to see if any are not fully seated. If you can verify that they are, then you can eliminate that variable up front.

I'll tell you a quick fix, use Federal primers, you will cease having failure to fire problems.

.
This ^^^
It's generally believed that CCI primers use a thicker cup and Federal uses a thinner cup.

Well, unfortunately I have about 40,000 of the CCI primers so I will have to figure out something that works.

Just how stupid would it be to try to use my hand primer to seat them deeper? 🤣🤣🤣

If you prep your brass once, it is done, cut the primer pockets, to uniform the pocket size and depth, then cut the flash holes inside to out, trim to uniform length, when loading with a taper crimp, seat as a seperate stage, then crimp the case mouth until straight. The case loaded head-spaces on the case mouth, thus the case must stop on the case mouth at the chamber to lands cut, can not jam inside the lands.

If you get a bench mounted RCBS primer tool you can feel the primers seat a good hard seat on ever primer on every case is good.

Not the absolute dumbest thing, but close.

I've just started using a Lee Auto Bench Prime. I've got about 500 223 primes with it - I like it.

Well, I called my insurance agent and updated my life insurance policy and then proceeded to sloooowly hand-squeeze about 10 rounds while holding them around the corner of my concrete porch supports. Absolutely no difference in primer depth, so I don’t believe that's my issue at this point. 🤣
I will investigate further.

Your Pistol probably just needs a good Cleesing!

You're obviously experiencing Fawlty Powers.

He already cleaned it thoroughly.

Friends,

.380 does not headspace off the case mouth. That is in theory. Reality is entirely different. This also applies to pretty much any semi auto cartridge fired in a standard semi auto handgun.

It headspaces off of the extractor. Unless you have specifically dropped a round into the chamber and over ridden the extractor, the cartridge is normally fed from the magazine into the pistol. It is held against the breach face by the extractor.

That is why you can fire a 40 S&W in a 10mm, a .380 in a 9mm, and so forth.

Also the brass does not shrink/get shorter after it is fired. Just the opposite. Brass is malleable. It flows. It flows forward and forms to fit the chamber (to a degree). In doing so it lengthens. In the process the overall length grows a bit. That is why you have to re-size the brass in order to reload it. You are returning it to its original length as well as other dimensions.

Since a 380acp pistol uses direct blow back. Couldn't an imperceptible bulge in the cartridge keep it from being fully chambered, with a strike from the FP being enough finish chambering the round instead of igniting the primer?

This makes sense.

I'm going to investigate this further. I have ordered a Bulge Buster from Lee and I'm going to run about a hundred rounds of brass through it and check them in my chamber gauge. Currently, quite a few of the rounds (and empty, re-sized brass) have to be gently nudged into the gauge once the round gets to the rim - almost as if the head of the case is just a tad tight.

EA,

It could. and the fact that some of his rounds are having a difficult time clearing the go- no-go gauge may be an indicator that they are not sized properly. I would go back to square one, and take a close look at the sizing die, to the point of simply pulling it and re-seating it to make sure it is seated properly and sizing the case all the way down.

I’ve always used Dillon dies which just do a taper “crimp”. Does the FCD really do a crimp? That could theoretically bulge the case mouth slightly and cause an issue in the gauge.

I believe the Lee FCD does a taper crimp.

Unless you have a revolver chambered for an auto round.

Yes, it most certainly can and does headspace off the extractor, the base of the case or anything that holds the the case in place and stops forward movement. There is still the need to have a forward chamber stop. Its insurance.

Carbide handgun dies especially, to my knowledge, only contact the exterior diameter of the case and have no mechanical means of making the case shorter.
They also most certainly do not reduce a case to its original dimensions; its usually smaller, more than what a steel die does, which is why many rounds made with them have a bulge. I'm assuming these are carbide dies, because that's what most use.
This smaller diameter size collar elongates the case; the expander run through shortens it.

I agree, if the sizer is not set up to size low enough on the case it can create the issue the OP is having. The case could be hanging on the pressure expanded ring on the fired brass that is not reduced sufficiently, deadening the firing pin blow before the extractor or headspace shoulder stops the brass.

Some caliper readings at multiple points along a factory cartridge that works against a hand load that doesn’t may offer some insight.

I have to admit that I wasn't completely aware of this, so I went to my loading bench, got out my caliper and checked it out. That is exactly what I'm seeing. And the end product is the same length as the fired case.


I'm having a hard time believing that if the force of the entire slide mass isn't enough to seat the round thoroughly, the little firing pin is able to move it more. It's possible, I guess - but I've never seen that. I have experienced the bulge in a tight chamber stopping the slide out of battery, and cured that with the FCD.

That is correct. The FCD does a taper crimp.

My experience is that carbide sizers, special crimping dies, LEE junk and a single fixed chamber creates more confusion than six separate chambers and a nominal old school steel die ever could fathom....

Which is why I've never been a contraption guy .

I've snapped some pictures to illustrate some misconceptions today and will post them later.

For a hint, cartridge brass is no different than our bullets. They swell and form where pressure is greatest; at the rear. The sizing is what makes them (cases) longer, not the fitting to the chamber upon firing.

Theres also a good reason to make headspace on the case mouth with contraptions and not to rely on a rim or an ass end headspace condition.

Any 38 Super guy understands this as a function of accuracy and the industry has as well.

If you've had "success" with a LEE die getting rounds to fit the front end, the same "affliction" can be caused with carbide dies on the ass end, especially with brass picked up wherever.

Let us start at the beginning; I must be forgiven, because I have no unfettered 45 Colt brass laying around. I chose the 45 for these examples because it is a cartridge plagued with wide chamber variances and die variances. And its longer than the OP's cartridge, which should magnify what we are discussing.

Quite frankly I would be disappointed in myself if I had any fresh 45 Colt brass lying around. I still have some modicum of faith in myself. I did manage to pull two once fired cases to measure:



Here's the first cartridge, sized with an RCBS Cowboy Carbide sizer:


This one is sized FL in a steel sizing die, the ones that (gasp) need lube:


There's two things at play here; one, the carbide die and the steel die both re-size the case to a longer OAL than the fired brass. Second, the brass in the steel die, even though adjusted to cam off the shell holder to maximize sizing, reduces the brass diameter less and creates a shorter cartridge length before expanding than with a carbide sizer. It also shows sizing at the pressure ring where the carbide die bulges. Note that neither die reduced the length of the fired cartridge. An expander in both will reduce them in length slightly, because you are expanding.
But this is about unfired versus fired brass.

Here is an unfired 22 Jet round. I chose this one especially because it has a neck and shoulder juncture and also because its the poster child of magnifying everything we are searching answers for; the REAL answers. This is an unfired Jet case.



Here is a fired Jet case from the same lot of 500 as the unfired case. Note the shoulder is blown forward, the datum line of the neck has been filled out, but we again have a shorter case. The brass has went outward and forward to fill the chamber(s)without growing in length. Yes, I have more unfired brass at the unfired length and fired brass pretty much the length of this piece of fired brass; I could post 50 or a hundred more pictures with the same results.
We could easily make the fired brass longer through the sizing process; either marginally by partial full length sizing to the pressure ring, going all out with a full length re-size, or we could get really crazy and full length size AND hit the body with a 357 carbide sizer die ring, just like thousands of reloaders do with their handgun brass. But there is no way we are going to shorten it without a trimmer.



Brass is no different than the bullets we fire; they swell where pressure is greatest and they shrink in length to fit, especially towards the base end. If you size either on the outside diameter (which is what we do when re-sizing), they will get longer. With cylindrical brass the brass will flow to fit at each firing and this is exacerbated if you are using a carbide die full length or a FL die full length, less so if we adjust the FL die to just chamber. So in that regard our brass will lengthen, but fired brass will shorten each time to fit the chamber and will only grow longer with the "aid" of re-sizin

Brass length, initially, shortens at the first firing, expansion or neck up....if you neck down or size down from there, it lengthens.

Please take a chill pill, HawkI.

It was either that or Annealing Part 3......

LOL.

Well, that was super educational but little to do with the question at hand. Unless you can explain how the firing pin has more force than the slide going into battery.


As for my "junk" Lee FCD, Hawkl, untold thousands of 9mm and 45 acp loads - yes, successful - have not been a problem here for my use. And that FCD did not contribute to my verification of your earlier post. Sized = longer. Mouth expanded slightly = back to starting length, more or less. That was all. Interesting, but of no practical consequence for run of the mill range rounds.

Were I competing in Bullseye, I might care enough to toss my "junk", but that ain't my bag. Now, rifle loads...they get more respect from me.

Regarding Lee "junk": I shoot High Master scores in Service Rifle and load all of my ammo with Lee "junk".😉

It has everything to do with the question at hand, and no, the firing pin doesn't have more force than the slide. The 45 Colt brass pictures say it in so many words without even putting a caliper on them.

Bulk fired brass, fired in whatever chamber and sized with a carbide die, can still have a slide close and still be in battery, yet still be sticky at that bulge, deadening the firing pin blow. The same round slammed home a second time and the problem is "resolved". I would point out the extractor isn't very good insurance at this instance.

The OP has admitted as much by having rounds stick a bit in the gauge and his next remedy is another die, a "Bulge buster" (that will probably fix his issue) but involves another step because lubing a thousand 223's is respectable work while the lowly .380 needs five dies to make sure it goes bang every time. But hey, you don't have to lube anything.
The fact that there are "Bulge buster" dies and Factory Crimp dies that coincide with carbide sizer dies to cajole a loaded round in a single fixed chamber remind me of creating a problem to have a solution, but I digress...

Revolvers aren't immune from having this happen either. Anyone out there have to push their carbide sized brass fired from their Ruger "home" a bit in some of their Smiths? My experience with a 44 Desert Eagle says pass the FL steel sizer.

Yes, the Federal caps go pop easier but having them all go off, regardless of brand, makes more sense.

YMMV, but if handgun rounds have a High Master Service Rifle shooter asking why his aren't all going off maybe we should respect them a little more.

I think Mackey was correct in that its a sizing issue.

If that is the case, then I will have learned something again. BTW - that's four dies here, not five. But I don't load 380.

Excuse me, sir - if that comment was a dig at me please take your condescension somewhere else. I was simply saying that Lee makes good enough "junk" (your words) that you can shoot high master rifle scores with it. I admittedly don't know a whole lot about loading pistol ammo, but do a pretty good job of loading rifle ammo.

Trigger,

My point is that if people loaded their handguns understanding what they know about loading rifles they would have less of a chance to have issues. But they dont. Thats where the mileage varies.

Like clockwork, the standard response "get a LEE Factory Crimp die" comes out of the woods. Why? Because its pretty obvious folks like skipping things they wouldn't with loading rifles and the symptom curing seems more like help than the actual cure is, which most anyone loading rifle ammo already knows how to do. But that doesn't sell more dies or make people feel like they've conquered something.

You don't need four dies or five because you've created perfectly good functioning ammo that doesn't need ironed out at this end, then at that end with a special die.

A steel FL die set, like you have for rifle cartridges, works pretty well.

Gotcha.
But, since there's no shoulder to index off of like with with rifle ammo, pistol ammo makes me kind of lost.

Just index off of the shellholder to FL size bulk once fired brass.

As pictured above with the 45 Colt cases, it still works the brass less than a carbide die and you don't need a bulge die; you've already sized the pressure ring.

OK, I have some more info. I went to my range today and fired the remainder of the ammo through two identical P232's that I have and had misfires with both guns, so it's definitely not a dirty gun or firing pin issue. Second strike set off all but one round that required 3 strikes.
Before shooting the ammo, I measured most of the rounds at various places on the cases and they were almost identical. Some of the cases still wouldn't just drop in and out of the case gauge, but I couldn't determine any differences in measurements from those that dropped in easily. Maaaybe .001 difference now and then.
The only thing I remember doing different was loading the primers on the press this time rather than the hand-primer, but I'll be damned if I could see or feel a difference in
I'm going to clean all my dies and start from zero.

I would smoke or color with a marker the cases that stick in your gauge, drop them in the gauge again to see what's the "hold up" if they haven't all been fired already.

I've not encountered this, but have read where a batch of bullets having some out of spec caused issues chambering. Not saying that's the problem, but the process of elimination might include checking.

Well, they're all gone now - all shot up.

Is the slide going into full battery when this happens? Can you smack the slide forward any? Sounds like a weak recoil spring.

Revolver - revolver is the answer.

Yes, it's in full battery.
It's happening in two identical guns, one practically brand new, both of which have fired hundreds of rounds of my cast lead ammo without issues, so I don’t believe it's a weak recoil spring.

Yeah, I'm about fed up with semi-autos in general. Just too sensitive to ammo.

If it’s happening with two guns that fire other, cast bullet loads and factory loads OK, you’ve pretty much removed the possibility that it’s the gun. (Other than the extractor dictating headspace) There’s something about your recently loaded ammo that’s causing the problem. I would guess that something is preventing the firing pin from reaching the primers.

…Cases too short or a slight crimp allowing the case to seat into the chamber a little deeper if the extractor hook is a tiny bit farther from the breech face. Is the extractor hook within spec?

…Are you you using the same case brand? If they’re a different brand, is the rim thickness the same as the cases of those loads that work OK? Thinner rims may be allowing the extractor hook to hold the cases a tiny bit farther away from the breech face or the firing pin.

…Are the primers seated deeper than those in those cast bullet loads? Just hold a thin straight edge across the bases and eyeball the depth of the primers or measure if you have a tool to do it.

Hope you get it figured out.

Yeah, sure - if you're a quitter.

🤣

99% of my handgun use is hunting revolvers, 100% of which, go bang every time you pull the trigger.

My EDC’s are 1911’s, and coincidently SIG’s, which I have full confidence in.

I’ve followed this thread all the way through and it’s been kind of interesting in several ways, not the least of which is that’s it’s gone 7 pages with a small measure of disagreement but no one has questioned anyone else’s manhood or thrown down a gauntlet to meet at a major airport for a duel.

Anyway, a couple thoughts… if one is into geometric and dimensional tolerance in a professional sense, it is pretty obvious that there are aspects of size and shape that will affect function and that can’t necessarily be measured by the simple expedient of putting a caliper across a part in one or any number of places. Two, there are commercial reloaders that quite successfully process large quantities of diverse brands of brass all in one batch and such reloads work perfectly well in anyone’s pistol…as well as factory new. There’s one such outfit near me and I go over to their facility and buy their product by the thousands with no problems. I suspect the reason their remanufactued stuff works better than a lot of the home reloaders auto pistol stuff sometimes does is their use of a push through resizing die. It would tend to address the causes of much of the GDT issues we sometimes experience.

My final thought that has run through this thread is wondering why anyone would reload .380 ammo. I’ve never been able to bring myself to reload 9mm even. Of course, I know why we do this stuff, I probably reload calibers I don’t shoot 100 rounds of in 20 years…it’s what we do

I've read the entire thread...I had this problem when I first started reloading because I didn't seat my first batch of primers deep enough. (I had no mentor and was learning by doing and reading the manuals...). I just put the primer in and made it 'look right'. Now, many years later, I make sure that they are seated to as far as possible and never had an issue again.

Since you are having issues in multiple platforms...it may be something as simple as sorting the brass by manufacturer.

Anyways, glad that you got through your batch without any badness, Stay safe!

-John

I load .380 because I shoot a F-ton of it. I have three .380 pistols - two Sig P232's and a Browning 1911-380. One of those three are my EDC because they fit me and I've been shooting the Sigs for 20+ years, so very comfortable with them.

Up until loading the V-crown bullets, I had always loaded cast lead 100 gr. RNFP bullets with no issues. Hundreds of them. There's something about the V-crown bullets that makes things different.

I loaded up another 50 rounds yesterday evening and about 20 out of the 50 don't plunk easily into the chamber gauge. I disassembled a couple of those that didn't fit and one of them had a case that was too long and the other one had a case was that was right at the maximum length. I marked with a red marker all the ones that fit snugly in the chamber gauge and will check to see if any of those misfire next time I go to the range.

Hi T!
Hope you're doing well.
Never loaded .380 except for the occasional stray that sneaks into a 9mm batch and never owned a P232, so this is all swag on my part.
Didn't see where you tried "plunking" your loads in the removed barrel itself? Compare factory rounds with your problem batch. I like to see them fall in "plunk" and in some guns, be able to turn them fairly easy as well.
If the gun locks up but still don't fire first time I always go to the primer itself and how its seated. I like to make sure they are seated solid, maybe even a tiny bit of "crush". Gets a little aggravating with mixed brass.
I use a Dillon 1050 for 9mm, it primes on the down stroke with adjustable primer seating depth. Can't "feel" anything as far as primers bottoming out in the pocket. I set it up with some "crush" in some cases and not so much in others. No issues with 9mm. I'm loading GINEX primers right now with the same setup as CCI without a hitch.
Not sure if its the same with .380 but I find some 9mm cases with a stop or ledge inside. I guess its to insure no bullet setback? But if you try to load a longer bullet it bulges the case or mangles the base of lead bullets.
The only real primer seat troubles I've had using progressive presses was a Hornady LNL. Took some modification to get it seating primers consistently.
Hope you get it figured out asap, I detest a gun malfunction getting in the way of my user issues!

Well y'all, I believe I've got the problem fixed.

As I mentioned a couple of posts above, I had a handful of rounds that still didn't play well with the case gauge. I ran all of those through the Lee Bulge Buster and they now plunk in and out of the case gauge with ease. I could definitely feel some resistance on the rounds as they passed through the die and the "bulge" was being ironed out.

Question is, how did the cases get the bulge? Is it something that I'm doing in my sizing process? Is it just the range pickup brass itself?
I don't know, as this is a new problem to me - maybe it was bound to happen and I just finally came across brass that had the bulges from being fired in a Glock or another pistol with an unsupported chamber.

I will fire all 50 rounds to check for function, but I'm betting I have fixed the issue considering how easily they slipped in and out of the case gauge after ironing out those bulges.

Thanks, gentlemen, for all of your suggestions and for keeping this thread civil and enlightening.

Trigger,

The "bulge" is from rounds being fired from multiple chambers;

Carbide dies can't always size out excessive variances.

A plain steel die sizing cases full length eliminates this in fired brass before the round is loaded, just like full length sizing your 223 ammo.

Please explain the differences between a steel die and a carbide die and why the carbide die doesn't full length size. They aren't the same length?

A steel die returns the case to its nominal unfired size the length of the case and is made with a reamer just like your chamber. Indexing off the shellholder sizes the case full length.

A carbide die is a carbide ring that sizes the case under sized as far down as the ring can contact the case.
Because it is a ring set inside the die it can only index so far down the case. It also should not index off the shell holder or the carbide will break or the retaining ring than holds it may break.
Even if you could index off the shellholder, the ring is set too high to reach the base or pressure ring of the case. Its sizing effect is causing a bulge like squeezing toothpaste to one end of the tube.

This, plus some dies designed for progressive machines sometimes have more bell at the base. Helps with small misalignment in those machines.

I have a selection of size, seat and crimp dies along with different powder through expander funnels for .45acp, there are small differences between makers and even lot/production runs with same maker. I have custom powder through expanders for 9mm and .45acp. Mostly for loading soft lead bullets. The idea is to get the case opened up enough along with bell to keep the case from sizing the soft bullets as they are seated. More stupid bullseye stuff....

Heck, it looks like almost all dies available nowadays are carbide. I'll just use the Bulge Buster that I already have rather than trying to track down another die.

Bear in mind also that by ironing out said bulge you are altering the diameter of the bullet that's inside the case too. That displaced material has to go somewhere, and if the bulge is on one side and not the other it means the bullet is cockeyed so if that's the case by "busting the bulge" you're either shrinking the diameter of the bullet or crushing it mis-shapen, neither of which will do accuracy any good. Best to suss out why they're bulged rather than mashing the bulges.

Could be also that your brass isn't compatible with your bullet in terms of wall thickness and/or where the internal tapering begins, in relation to where the base of the bullet falls internally. Can't speak to .380 brass and bullets though, it's been 40 years since I messed with loading for one. I can speak to this phenomenon regarding .38 Special brass and wadcutter bullets though and am merely wondering if some permutation of the same formula is happening here. I would mic the wall thickness(es) and determine if your bullet bases are intruding into the internal taper.

I load all my .380 on a Dillon 550B using Dillon carbide dies adjusted per Dillon instructions. I recall having some issues in the beginning. I recall making some posts on some forums about it, but I could not locate the posts to see what the problem was. In any event, once I figured it out, I have not had any trouble loading jacketed flat points, Xtreme Penetrators, and Xtreme Defenders that run fine. I have used both CCI and Winchester small pistol primers and mixed brass from a variety of factory ammo and some new Starline brass. I don't do anything special to the cases, and the only adjustments I make to the dies are to the seating die to adjust the COL depending on the bullet I am using. I don't even have a case gauge in .380. I will add that I have only loaded for newer locked breach firearms such as the Glock 42 and the Sig P365-380.

Triggernosis, I hope you get yours figured out.



I like to shoot .380's. The ammo can be hard to find at times and more expensive than loading 9mm, so it is more cost effective to load them, although it will get more expensive when I run out of my last batch of projectiles.

I believe I may have found a "clue". I just noticed a second #4 shell holder on my bench (#4 is used for 380 and .223, which I also load for). The second shell holder will allow the die to come down on the case about 0.002 - 0.003" further based on my measurements.
I'm betting I've gotten those shell holders mixed up and have been using the wrong one to size my .380 brass.
I'm going to run some brass through the newly found one and see if it sizes the cases differently. I'll bet it does.