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Joined: Aug 2011
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I qualified with the S&W M15 and later the M9. I liked the M15 far more than the M9. Neither were easily carried in a shoulder holster under a flight suit. The M9 was more of a PITA to carry that way. IME a Glock 19 would be a disaster for many of the aircrew members I served with. Most only shot the issue weapons once every three years. You can carry .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver. What does that have to do with anything he is talking about? None of the handguns he is referencing is chambered for .357 Magnum. Not everyone here was in the military and even if they were does not mean they know about all handguns issued. Excluding .45 Colt and .45 ACP Americans used different .38 Special revolvers. One 2" light weight S&W, rest were 4" models made either by Ruger or S&W.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What ?? No CZ75 in the testing ??
kwg It failed to meet program requirements. I have one CZ design. It has a safety and double/single action similar to the M9 and it has never missed a shot due to a jam or malfunction. It's only down side is, it's a steel frame and it's from a former USSR company. Now that CZ owns Colt, I'm betting the Sig won't last long and the CZ 75 design will be making an appearance at some time in the future. Just my guess. kwg
Based on what? It will be years and years before the Sig will be replaced. Maybe decades.Based on political pressure from the corporate Colt/CZ owners. We are talking the military, the pentagon and deep pockets. Special emphasis deep pockets. It might be after we are gone but If Colt is still the #1 producer of rifles to the troops, I see CZ pistols right behind. Personally, I was skeptical of the M9 and abandoning the 1911. But, after shooting and carrying the M9, I am no longer a skeptic. It's as good of a gun as the 1911. The only drawback is the 9mm instead of the .45. I also believe the reason the 1911 was abandoned was politics. It was time to share the American tax dollar wealth with another NATO member. Just like going with the Sig. It's a German companies turn to cash in. It's all politics. I don't have big hands and I have no issues with the 1911 or the M9 and the grip size. Taking a SWAG, the grip size of the M9 might affect what, maybe 1 or 2 percent of the entire US military ? Big whoopee. The political string pullers are just sharing the wealth with another NATO member. This time it's a German company because the last company was Italian. CZ's day is coming. All they have to do is be patient. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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What ?? No CZ75 in the testing ??
kwg It failed to meet program requirements. I have one CZ design. It has a safety and double/single action similar to the M9 and it has never missed a shot due to a jam or malfunction. It's only down side is, it's a steel frame and it's from a former USSR company. Now that CZ owns Colt, I'm betting the Sig won't last long and the CZ 75 design will be making an appearance at some time in the future. Just my guess. kwg
Based on what? It will be years and years before the Sig will be replaced. Maybe decades.Based on political pressure from the corporate Colt/CZ owners. We are talking the military, the pentagon and deep pockets. Special emphasis deep pockets. It might be after we are gone but If Colt is still the #1 producer of rifles to the troops, I see CZ pistols right behind. Personally, I was skeptical of the M9 and abandoning the 1911. But, after shooting and carrying the M9, I am no longer a skeptic. It's as good of a gun as the 1911. The only drawback is the 9mm instead of the .45. I also believe the reason the 1911 was abandoned was politics. It was time to share the American tax dollar wealth with another NATO member. Just like going with the Sig. It's a German companies turn to cash in. It's all politics. I don't have big hands and I have no issues with the 1911 or the M9 and the grip size. Taking a SWAG, the grip size of the M9 might affect what, maybe 1 or 2 percent of the entire US military ? Big whoopee. The political string pullers are just sharing the wealth with another NATO member. This time it's a German company because the last company was Italian. CZ's day is coming. All they have to do is be patient. kwg Nope, Americans are switching to new assault rifles and light machine guns both from SiG Sauer.
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,390
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2019
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For a CZ fanboy I sure like my Italian Beretta. Smoothest nine I ever shot. Love the decocker/safety just where it is. Replaceable front sight and a CZ grip shape/ mag capacity would bring it up to date. Why that isn't obvious in Italy given all their screwy new stuff isn't obvious at all. My Turk CZ knock offs are better than the Czech in accuracy, finish and fit however. Complex but rugged design with strong performance record worldwide. Simple strikers are best for military and police, personnel and armorers alike, seems to me. The new M&P's surpass Glock in every way except long standing record for reliability. One size fits all though. Screw diversity. And screw Sig. Buy American!
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 17,125
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2019
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Should the military have ever allowed convicts to join and reduced fitness standards?
"mil-spec" is now just government contract grade product....
Sig built a huge plant in NH. Sig us Sununu grade.... A Rino at best...
Nothing against NH.. I like the older Sig stuff. But the Old man of the mountain has lost face as result of greedy politicians.
-OMotS
"If memory serves fails me..."
Quote: ( unnamed) "been prtty deep in the cooler todaay "
Television and radio are most effective when people question little and think even less.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,115
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,115 |
Let's face it, most military personnel can't hit the broad side of a barn with a handgun, and that's from inside the barn.
Same solution that worked in the 1940's would work today, just re-issue the M1 carbine only chamber it in .357 Magnum Rimless (which is what it should have been back then anyway). My Father was issued an M1 Carbine in 1942. After seeing how many times his fellow Marines had to shoot Japanese soldiers with the .30 Carbine ball ammo before they were no longer a threat, he said that he thought that the 351 WSL with its standard 180 grain bullet would have been a better cartridge choice. The .mil already has the MK18 which is a 10.3 barrel AR/M4. Shorter and more compact than the M1 Carbine, better terminal ballistics, possible to mount optics/RDS. Even the standard M4 is shorter than an M1 Carbine.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,950
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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What ?? No CZ75 in the testing ??
kwg It failed to meet program requirements. I have one CZ design. It has a safety and double/single action similar to the M9 and it has never missed a shot due to a jam or malfunction. It's only down side is, it's a steel frame and it's from a former USSR company. Now that CZ owns Colt, I'm betting the Sig won't last long and the CZ 75 design will be making an appearance at some time in the future. Just my guess. kwg
Based on what? It will be years and years before the Sig will be replaced. Maybe decades.Based on political pressure from the corporate Colt/CZ owners. We are talking the military, the pentagon and deep pockets. Special emphasis deep pockets. It might be after we are gone but If Colt is still the #1 producer of rifles to the troops, I see CZ pistols right behind. Personally, I was skeptical of the M9 and abandoning the 1911. But, after shooting and carrying the M9, I am no longer a skeptic. It's as good of a gun as the 1911. The only drawback is the 9mm instead of the .45. I also believe the reason the 1911 was abandoned was politics. It was time to share the American tax dollar wealth with another NATO member. Just like going with the Sig. It's a German companies turn to cash in. It's all politics. I don't have big hands and I have no issues with the 1911 or the M9 and the grip size. Taking a SWAG, the grip size of the M9 might affect what, maybe 1 or 2 percent of the entire US military ? Big whoopee. The political string pullers are just sharing the wealth with another NATO member. This time it's a German company because the last company was Italian. CZ's day is coming. All they have to do is be patient. kwg Colt has lost most all of their US-military contracts years ago. Where are you hearing the inside baseball that CZ is applying political pressure to the DoD?
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,950
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2022
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I qualified with the S&W M15 and later the M9. I liked the M15 far more than the M9. Neither were easily carried in a shoulder holster under a flight suit. The M9 was more of a PITA to carry that way. IME a Glock 19 would be a disaster for many of the aircrew members I served with. Most only shot the issue weapons once every three years. You can carry .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver. What does that have to do with anything he is talking about? None of the handguns he is referencing is chambered for .357 Magnum. Not everyone here was in the military and even if they were does not mean they know about all handguns issued. Excluding .45 Colt and .45 ACP Americans used different .38 Special revolvers. One 2" light weight S&W, rest were 4" models made either by Ruger or S&W. Can you site your source of a Ruger revolver contract with the DoD?
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
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Just to agitate the kettle. I worked as a contract handgun and rifle instructor for the US g for 5 years following 9/11. Trainees were mostly mil and oga remfs and transport folks who were given a basic course for their weapons of issue prior to going to the sand. Our armorers were kept busy and expected the m9s to fail [broken locking blocks] at close to 14k rds.
Note: de-cockers are not a fix for stupid, trying to get a line of non-warrior types to de-cock prior to holstering is a task worthy of Sisyphus.
Glocks are the choice of serious people.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,379
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,379 |
Let's face it, most military personnel can't hit the broad side of a barn with a handgun, and that's from inside the barn.
Same solution that worked in the 1940's would work today, just re-issue the M1 carbine only chamber it in .357 Magnum Rimless (which is what it should have been back then anyway). To the many kind folks who quoted my post, note the underlined word "today". Now why would I use an underline to change the meaning of the word "today" in that context from "nowadays; the general current time frame" to mean "specifically this date; the date of this post"? Hmmm...  I will stand by the statement that most military personnel (and the public in general) can't hit the broad side of a barn with a handgun, at least based on the Swiss cheesed state of the pistol range at Ft. Jackson, SC, and observation of hundreds if not thousands of shooters at public ranges.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,115
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
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Just to agitate the kettle. I worked as a contract handgun and rifle instructor for the US g for 5 years following 9/11. Trainees were mostly mil and oga remfs and transport folks who were given a basic course for their weapons of issue prior to going to the sand. Our armorers were kept busy and expected the m9s to fail [broken locking blocks] at close to 14k rds.
Note: de-cockers are not a fix for stupid, trying to get a line of non-warrior types to de-cock prior to holstering is a task worthy of Sisyphus.
Glocks are the choice of serious people.
mike r LOL. Nothing wrong with Glocks and I carry one most days but lots of serious people use other pistols. Why don't you tell the class of a single gun fight lost because there was a different handgun in the holster. Thanks.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,880
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
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I personally wasn't a fan of the M9. Nothing against the pistol per se, just the ones we had. Dam things were worn out. Couldn't get new ones. When I was in charge of our armory, I carried my 1911 with authorization from CO, in writing. Legal or not....
I like my m17. Maybe cuz it's not worn out and it's tight. My m11-a1 shoots better but the m17 isn't bad
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,199
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,199 |
What ?? No CZ75 in the testing ??
kwg It failed to meet program requirements. I have one CZ design. It has a safety and double/single action similar to the M9 and it has never missed a shot due to a jam or malfunction. It's only down side is, it's a steel frame and it's from a former USSR company. Now that CZ owns Colt, I'm betting the Sig won't last long and the CZ 75 design will be making an appearance at some time in the future. Just my guess. kwg
Based on what? It will be years and years before the Sig will be replaced. Maybe decades.Based on political pressure from the corporate Colt/CZ owners. We are talking the military, the pentagon and deep pockets. Special emphasis deep pockets. It might be after we are gone but If Colt is still the #1 producer of rifles to the troops, I see CZ pistols right behind. Personally, I was skeptical of the M9 and abandoning the 1911. But, after shooting and carrying the M9, I am no longer a skeptic. It's as good of a gun as the 1911. The only drawback is the 9mm instead of the .45. I also believe the reason the 1911 was abandoned was politics. It was time to share the American tax dollar wealth with another NATO member. Just like going with the Sig. It's a German companies turn to cash in. It's all politics. I don't have big hands and I have no issues with the 1911 or the M9 and the grip size. Taking a SWAG, the grip size of the M9 might affect what, maybe 1 or 2 percent of the entire US military ? Big whoopee. The political string pullers are just sharing the wealth with another NATO member. This time it's a German company because the last company was Italian. CZ's day is coming. All they have to do is be patient. kwg Colt has lost most all of their US-military contracts years ago. Where are you hearing the inside baseball that CZ is applying political pressure to the DoD?Not hearing. Speculating. But, now that CZ has made major inroads into American firearms. Especially a big dog like Colt, I find it hard to believe they won't be pushing for some contracts. The gravy train is just too good to pass up. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381 |
Just to agitate the kettle. I worked as a contract handgun and rifle instructor for the US g for 5 years following 9/11. Trainees were mostly mil and oga remfs and transport folks who were given a basic course for their weapons of issue prior to going to the sand. Our armorers were kept busy and expected the m9s to fail [broken locking blocks] at close to 14k rds.
Note: de-cockers are not a fix for stupid, trying to get a line of non-warrior types to de-cock prior to holstering is a task worthy of Sisyphus.
Glocks are the choice of serious people.
mike r LOL. Nothing wrong with Glocks and I carry one most days but lots of serious people use other pistols. Why don't you tell the class of a single gun fight lost because there was a different handgun in the holster. Thanks. Why don't you tell the class about your training and experience in combat arms? You are welcome. #holstersniffer mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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