Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Enduron 4166

SO...
If the military contracts ease, which it might (it's possible, isn't it?) then the Enduran powders might come back (Y or N) or is this a definite maybe?

I too was under the impression IMR4166 was supposed to be close to IMR4064 rather than Varget (Not sure where I got that piece of information). Either way Varget and IMR4064 are useful powders. I wish I would have bought more IMR4166, I just have a lb.

At any rate the only reason I can see why powders wouldn't improve (de-coppering agents, temp sensitivity etc.) with time is there would be a monopoly on the market and the profits wouldn't improve with powder improving. But I have high hopes that the selection of powders will improve with time.

Does Hodgon or Vista or whomever have exclusive rights to retail sales from these manufacturers, particularly with the manufacture in Quebec? That is, are these exclusive contracts - " contracted with various powder manufacturers to make them--along with newer introductions"

Thanks

Bugger,

A definite maybe.

No, IMR4166 was not designed to be close to 4064. I suspect the sales of IMR4064 lag far behind Varget, since Varget's an improvement in a couple of ways: far more temperature resistant, with smaller granules that run through a mechanical measure far easier. But a lot of older handloaders are used to IMR4064, because they've been using it so long, so it continues to be made.

As noted in my previous post, the Endurons were designed to supplement the very popular Hodgdon Extremes made in Australia, which include Varget, H4350 and H4831SC, among others. This was due to the difficulties I mentioned in getting enough of the Extremes into the U.S. to meet demand. (I got all this information from the former writer contact at Hodgdon, who has since retired. He asked me not to write about some of it publicly at the time, but that was a decade ago.)

No, Hodgdon does not have an exclusive contract with the Quebec manufacturer. In fact, offhand I can only think of one powder manufacturer (that most U.S. handloaders would recognize) that only makes canister handloading powder for one company--and that is Vihtavuori. All the others I have specific info on make powder for several powder "distributors," which is what Hodgdon basically is. Which is why some powders from various "companies" are sometimes the same thing in a different canister. These have included W760, H414 and Accurate 2700, which today are all made at the same powder factory in Florida; and Norma 203B and Alliant Reloder 15, along with a number of others.

The most common procedure today is for a powder distributor such as Hodgdon to contract with an actual powder manufacturer to make a product for them. This is also exactly what Ramshot Powders was before Hodgdon bought them. The overall company was Western Powders, which started in southwestern Montana decades ago to distribute powder to mining companies.

Eventually Western also became a distributor of handloading powders, because the son of the guy who started the company eventually took over, who was an avid hunter and handloader. Western was a regional distributor for IMR and Hodgdon powders for years, but theson eventually got the bright idea to have their own line of powders made, and contracted with a powder company in Belgium to make the original four Ramshot rifle powders--TAC, Big Game, Hunter and Magnum.

Those were successful enough that the Ramshot line was eventually expanded, but not all is made in Belgium. Western also bought Accurate Arms Powders a few years later, which was also essentially a distributor which got its powders from various sources--often surplus production which could vary noticeably from lot to lot. Western decided to have the Accurate powders made in the Florida plant I mentioned, which improved consistency. (Western also changed the name from Accurate Arms to plain Accurate. This happened close to 20 years ago, but many handloaders still call them Accurate Arms or AA powders.)

Well, yeah, for you.

I'll explain my circumstances. First, after I retired from writing for Handloader in December 2022, I realized there wasn't nearly as much need for all the powder and bullets I had on hand. Some was provided by various companies, but was mostly purchased starting around a decade ago, when even bullet and powder companies often didn't have enough of anything on hand to meet gun-writer requests, at in time for magazine deadlines.

So I sold about half my powder supply, mostly to a local store which also had a hard time getting enough powder in. But I kept enough to continue to meet my needs for handloading our hunting ammo--and one of the powders kept was an 8-pounder of IMR4451. (I also keep track of the powders for the preferred loads of both my hunting rifles and Eileen's, and found Ramshot Big Game was used in more loads than any other powder, though 4451 wasn't far down the list. So have more than a jug of Big Game too.)

Anyway, around the same time I purchased a NULA Model 20 6.5-.284 from the estate of my fellow writer and old friend Tom McIntyre, who'd suddenly passed away. (Also bought several other guns to help out his wife Elaine.) Anyway, when I started working up a hunting load, did my usual research on loads that might work from various manuals, which indicated (along woth my experience) that IMR4451 might be a top choice.

It took 26 rounds to "work up" a load with both 127-grain Barnes LRXs and 129-grain Hornady Spire Point Interlocks that grouped 3 of each load into 6-shot group of around .6 inch at 100 yards. (I often load both a typical deer bullet and a "premium," using the deer bullet loads for deer-sized game, and the premium bullet for larger stuff.)

The powder charge turned out to be 49.0 grains, and during the "work-up" I'd also sighted in the Zeiss Conquest scope also purchased from Elaine, and in my experience both NULAs and Zeiss Conquests tend to retain zero the 50 rounds I loaded (30 Hornady and 20 Barnes) will last several years. They required about 1/3 of a pound of powder, so I still have most of the 8-pounder left.

Of course I'm also 71, so won't be using the rifle as long as a younger hunter--but I realized more than few years ago (partly due to handloading so much for my job) that it doesn't take nearly as much dinking around with powders, bullets and primers to "work up" a good load in a good rifle as many handloading hunters believe. Though of course a lot of 'em do it anyway, partly because dinking around with handloads and rifles is what most handloading hunters do, far more than actual hunting....

Guilty as charged. 😊 I usually find a good, usable load for a rifle but I may shoot some more to see if I can improve on the “good load”. 😁

I called and talked to a Hodgdon CS guy I’ve talked to several times previously about the status of Enduron powders. His answer was “We’re working on it”.

Hodgdon’s works with powder manufacturers to develop powders, something I learned when I had the opportunity to visit their facility—which does more than just package powders. I assume Enduron is a proprietary powder of Hodgdon.

Not to start a political ruckus, but if Putin takes Ukraine , Europe will be on a virtual war footing, and powders likely could become more scarce than they are now.

Me too!
These days I burn most of my powder with the excuse of tweaking hunting loads and practice……

Also, there seems to be this idea on the internet Hodgdon arbitrarily chose to cease production of Enduron powders. The General Dynamics plant that manufactures the Enduron powders had to increase production of artillery propellant, and Enduron was the loser.

Although it appears that the plant does continue to produce some of the traditional IMR powders they’ve been making for a long time.

Yes to all of the above....

A decade ago I knew all the principal guys at Hodgdon, in particular Ron Reiber, who ran the ballistics laboratory and was the primary writer contact. Met him around 1990, when I was considerably surprised by how "hot" a new jug of H335 was compared to my previous lot. It turned out that was because H335 was one particular lot of the mil-surp spherical powders they sold for years--and around 1990 they ran out (as they'd previously run out of the mil-surp H4831 years before).

So they worked with a powder manufacturer to make more H335--and the new jug I got was one of the first results. Had to reduce my primary .223 Remington charge by about two grains to match the velocity (and groups) of my old load. As Ron explained, that often happens with a powder manufacturer's first batches of a powder, but they keep some of each lot to blend with following lots, which eventually results in more consistent powder. (The same thing happened with Enduron IMR4451. The two pounds they sent me for "article testing" turned out to be somewhat slower-burning than the 8-pound jug I later purchased from a Internet supplier, so I mixed it all together.)

He told me many other useful things, especially about pressure-testing--in e-mails, over the phone and when I visited the headquarters.

When and IF the Endurons come back, don't forget the prudent "drop back and work" up when you get the new stuff (or switching lots in your current stash).
I had worked up a pretty good load for a buddy's .243 with the 95 BT using 4451, when the pound jar ran out. I switched over to my previously unopened 8# jug, which I had actually bought within a year or two of the pounders, and when I got back up to the same charge from the 8# that I'd previously used in the pounder with everything else identical in the load, it was 190 FPS slower. Could have gone the other way! That's the biggest lot-to-lot variation I have run into with any powder.

MD,
Agreed. My comment was directed at the OP who stated that he only has 1# of said powder.

Just to add to the discussion. ADI in Australia is owned by Thales, a French company. ADI is currently producing and shipping powder to France to load in 155mm cannon shells as Ukraine is using a lot of munitions. At the moment powder seems OK to get here and I guess in the US. But if supply is interrupted due to ADI military contracts then the Enduron powders may come back to fill the gap. That's if the Canada plant has the capacity to produce it after filling their military contracts first. I guess filling the war contracts should take precedence over sporting shooters. I have enough ADI powder to last 20 years minimum at my current usage rate. As I'm 52 that should be enough to 'see me out' which is a bit of a scary thought. But there are still blokes here who only buy one jar of powder at a time, and one tray of 100 primers, and then whinge when they run out and are left stuck.

Same here....