Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Think you're not a gun dealer?

Trade a gun to your buddy for a car parts, you could be a dealer.

Give someone a gun for tiling your floor, you could be a dealer.

Loose your job and sell some guns to pay your bills, you could be a dealer.

Buy a gun, don't like it, sell it within 30 days, you could be a dealer.

Sell some guns and loose money, you could be a dealer.

If the AFT says you're a dealer, you're a dealer. Under the new rule you are presumed guilty and must prove your innocence.

You're a fugging idiot. I don't believe anyone here is looking to you for any advice on current events.

and in the written laws they left a little parted toward the end of makes you think you can still do a few things but in actuality they'll probably completely shut it down.. or make it illegal without a background check.

Democrat National Socialist/Communist Regime tyranny - is like that.

... as are their Propagandists.




GR

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

This is current events.

The BATF has been active here in central Indiana, they've visited three of the guys who set up @ a weekly flea market. None of these guys have FFL's yet they're flipping guns two or three weekday markets and doing a gunshow nearly every week. Cash and carry is their policy and none of them keeps any records. The first guy was buying handguns from a local shop, filling out a 4473 for each. In his case BATF gave him a stern warning and that was enough for him, he no longer flips any guns. The second guy was building AR's from parts, often he'd have a couple 8' tables with nothing but them. He got a visit during which BATF agents found two AR's that were full auto. They siezed over 500 of his guns, took over tow years for the guns to be returned. Third guy bought a couple of Glocks from an auction, filled out 4473 on both. Sold them at the flea market and they wound up in Chicago and had been used in violent crimes there. He was visited not only by BATF agents but also Chicago police, he was threatened with a hefty fine and a five year jail term. Now is not the time to be what the BATF calls "engaging in the business" definition of which is purposely vague. Selling guns without an FFL is risky, a private sale should be just that. Between individuals known to you, both do the transaction in private and keep your mouths shut.

I disagree. AS is no idiot. His bad spelling notwithstanding, he is usually pretty on the ball. He's smart enough to know that none of the examples he cited would be illegal according to the the linked video. I do agree that giving BATFE a bunch of discretion will likely not end well for gun owners. The idea that there could be a presumption of guilt is pretty horrifying. That flies in the face of our legal tradition.

Anyone currently selling guns in this environment that doesn't own a store - nuts.

I'm not talking about ATF overreach - it's like selling your water in the desert. As Cash says "hard commodities, physically held" - I'm not selling crap that can shoot.

One offshoot of this is that some actual brick and mortar type FFL dealers at gunshows will see it as a way to increase business doing transfers - at a suddenly increased fee, and as something that will eventually eliminate competition.

There is a gun show locally this weekend and another in May after this rule takes effect. It will be interesting to see how many warning signs appear on tables - "Don't risk being a felon! All sales must go through an FFL! Let us help..."

I can think of at least one guy locally, maybe two, who would happily take advantage of this to their own benefit.

I sure hope the Supremes give their Chevron Defense ruling soon, and that they decide against agencies grossly overreaching.

Sounds like retards like you

If you say so,idiot.

yes, there are several things tied up in courts that could change a whole lot depending on the outcome..

https://orchidadvisors.com/the-atf-changes-definition-of-engaged-in-the-business/

April 15, 2024


The final version of ATF Rule 2022R-17 has been submitted to the Federal Register and will go into effect 30 days after the date of publication. The Final Rule broadens the definition of who is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms and finalizes many amendments to regulatory definitions.

A person will be considered to be “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms, when that person:

Resells or offers for resale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and resell additional firearms (i.e., to be a source of additional firearms for resale)”
Repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or repetitively resells or offers for resale, firearms—
(i) Through straw or sham businesses, or individual straw purchasers or sellers; or (ii) That cannot lawfully be purchased, received, or possessed under Federal, State, local, or Tribal law…

Repetitively sells or offers for resale firearms
(i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or

(ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are

(A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or

(B) The same make and model, or variants thereof

As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale to a person . . . firearms that were in the business inventory of the former licensee at the time the license was terminated…
and

As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale firearms that were transferred to the licensee’s personal collection…”
The Rule finalizes the amendment to the regulatory definition of “Dealer” to clarify that firearms dealing may occur wherever, or through whatever medium, qualifying domestic or international activities are conducted.

The Rule also “finalizes an amendment to the regulatory definition of “engaged in the business” to define the terms “purchase” and “sale” as they apply to dealers to include any method of payment or medium of exchange for a firearm, including services or illicit forms of payment (e.g., controlled substances). “Resale” is defined to mean “selling a firearm, including a stolen firearm, after it was previously sold by the original manufacturer or any other person.””

Providing services is considered a medium of exchange, so the ATF has codified their “historical exclusion for auctioneers who provide only auction services on commission to assist in liquidating firearms at an “estate-type” auction.”

The ruling states that a “licensee transferring a firearm to another licensee, must do so by following the verification and recordkeeping procedures in the regulations, rather than by using a Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473.”

“The final rule recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license.” Without an FFL, an individual must ensure they are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is not “to predominantly earn a profit”, which now focuses only on whether the intent of the underlying sale or disposition of the firearms is predominantly of the obtaining pecuniary gain. Individuals may continue to engage in private intrastate sales, without a license, provided the individuals are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is otherwise compliance with the law.

What is this hell called The United States of America?

Normally, I'd say spot on.

But these commies have ignored everything the SCOTUS has said, amd there have been no repercussions. The one exemption would be they did listen to scotus on vaccine mandates.

Untied Snakes of America

Ive sold 2 guns in 50 years, guess i am a dealer.

AS is not the source; he's the messenger and the truth of the video is not affected one iota by AS's posting of the video. Don't shoot the messenger!

one of the really bad parts of this he is like when Grandpa dies and he had a sizable gun collection. and say none of the family is very interested in or Grandma needs the money or the kids need the money after Grandpa's gone they can no longer sell his collection and collect the money without going through a dealer and pay commission or take a raping on the price you get or pay an auctioneer a percentage to auction them off.

that will cost some people a lot of money... and it's total [bleep] bullshit..

It's NOT a new rule. It's a proposal. ATF has no power to make law. Congress does.

I guess you think the ATF wouldn't shoot and kill an innocent man in a raid either.....

Says the expert with the girlfriend jacking off the pool cue ?

well yes the ATF does not have power to make laws and they are still tied up on court with some other stuff they tried to do. that has not stopped them. and Biden has signed this and my understanding it will take effect in 30 days.

now I'm sure it's going to get challenged in court by several people/groups and we'll see how it comes out...

Somewhere there is a snake that has been tied in a knot that wishes he could join but he can't.

Congress DID pass a new legislation authorizing this new rule making. It's called the Safer Communities Act.

You can thank John Cornyn for it's passage.

I don't thank john cornyn for anything. In fact, nothing would give me greater pleasure than pissing on his skinned head.

The whole FFL requirement fails the Bruen standard on whether it violates the Second Amendment, since in the early decades of our nation's history, post adoption of the Bill of Rights, there was no requirement that one possess a Federal Firearms License to make a living buying and selling firearms. It needs to be challenged on that basis, thus eliminating the entire FFL requirement.

90% will go to an auction house around here. Mo money, auctioneer handles all the transfers for 10% from seller and 15% buyers premium. Selling on your own is foolish.

and that is already in works on several different angles..
we will see how that comes out..

Apparently, the ATF is doing this to be in compliance with a recently passed bipartisan law (supported by both Democrats and Republicans) that eliminates the necessity for the seller to be making a substantial part of his living selling guns to be categorized as a dealer. Now, all that's left (thanks to the new law) is that you make a profit in gun sales. Many Republicans need to be primaried for supporting and voting for this.

I was set up in a large gun show this last weekend, did ok I didn't have any guns to sell, did buy a 22 pistol tho. 5-6 dealer I know said it was there last show. Probably mine too. Just a bad vibe, alot of people not many guns being sold. Mostly small stuff holsters ,knives. Ammo ect. Crowd down from previous years my check went thru pretty quickly, but heard of some not I do have a CPL, I heard some took a long time to go thru, and a few didn't get thru. Guy I bought mine from does have a FFL. He said it probably was his last show also, not much money anymore to much paper work ect. The days of the gun shows are about done I'm thinking!

Exactly. No honest person would consider my examples as being in the business, but a creative AFT agent could turn each into the next Ruby Ridge.

I've honestly never been to a gun show in my life.

No, you do not have to make a profit.

If you intended to make a profit and sell at a loss they can still consider you a dealer.

I’d expect BATFE to be scouring shows and online sales to look for folks flipping guns soon after purchase. Maybe even selling some guns low themselves and watching for buyers mark them up for quick resale. Those would be easy ways to gather evidence. Likewise, asking a seller the backstory on a gun displayed for sale might give a talkative seller the rope he needs to hang himself.

Also, don’t misunderstand, simply using a FFL dealer for the transfer is not proof of compliance. One could do this and still be “engaged in the business”.

It’s quite apparent that this has already sent shockwaves of fear through the gun owning community. That itself is a big victory for leftists. Add in a few high profile prosecutions and the objective will have been met.

Anybody have the definition of "repetitively" handy?

Exactly. It's wide open. 100% subjective and arbitrary.

How would they know if they’re not keeping a record or registry of people and their gun deals?

That’s a rhetorical question by the way.

Hey John

Which show what that?
Gun shows are changing I hope they can survive

And the fact is none of this will change anything in regards to crime

Hank

\

Everyone needs to just make up fake gun forsale adds, make these fuggers so busy it makes their head spin!!

The ATF can look at the serial number on the firearm and go right to the manufacturer and find out what distributor had it for sale to the dealers. So then the ATF calls the distributor to find out who he sold it to. The dealer (FFL holder) is required by law to enter that firearm in his bound book as an acquisition and enters the gun as a disposition when he sells it.
From there on the owner of the firearm is where it supposedly is. So the gun owner sells/ or gives the firearm to anybody and doesn't write down the serial number, he may be the owner of record. And no matter where that firearm ends up, the serial number is still on record.
Most of us have sold, traded given guns over the years, and if we were the last owner going by serial number we possibly liable for what ever that firearm did!!
If they pass laws and enforce them, somebody will be in trouble & probably be the bad guy.
I can't imagine that sh-t actually happening, but the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised.
I was a dealer for 40+ years and have seen many changes since I started. I got rid of my license several years ago and and always wonder when one of the hundreds of guns I sold/ received will come back to bite me.
Who knows what will happen, but I can't imagine it being good!!

Fear and bullshit is all they have.

And when they show up demanding to see the guns you listed for sale do you really think they'll believe the adds are fake, or will they come back with a warrant?

Yep, so is everyone on this site, regardless. The SCOTUS needs to throw out this new "rule". Remember the atf does not make law. What they are attempting is totally unconstitutional. I'm also hoping the Malinowski's sue them for all they are worth, for the stunt they did to Bryan, at o dark thirty. Taping over his security camera (door bell cam), they were there to get rid of him.

Interesting they did nothing with the Auctioneers Exemption. Here are Licensed People in Business some moving 100's of guns or more a year. Do dah, nothing to see here, let's go after J.Q. Taxpayer.

Great, but still, equitable? Hardly.

Has anyone read the 400+ page rule? Me neither.




Most of the above is not true. See page 12-13 above for safe harbors

There are specific exemptions for liquidating a collection, estates, selling a collectible gun to obtain funds to buy a more collectible gun, etc.

BMT

And the lawyers in the video above will tell you there's exceptions to all the safe harbor provision, which is the whole point of make the regulation 466 pages, muddy the water so bad you have no idea when you are, or are not considered a dealer.

I was a dealer for 20 years myself and wasn’t the “rule” that after 10 years you didnt need to keep the 4473 and the bound book?

It’s all bull schidt too.

I got calls several times over the years from the BATF asking who I sold a particular gun to, and I found it kind of humorous that I had to explain to the caller that I no longer had the 4473's since I got rid of them after 20 years. They didn't know the rules obviously. I also had a a couple more calls that I did have the paperwork and fortunately I was able to help them.

So, if I sell the 37 guns I plan on selling and they are sent to an FFL for a NICS check on the buyer this rule would not apply to me? Thanks.

Not enough information. If you bought them with the specific intention of reselling them to make profit, then .gov would probably consider you a dealer. Intent seems to be the key thing.

Sure, we all have the "intent" to get bent over the table, when we buy a gun. That's why guys always buy high, and sell low. For fu cks sake..

Did you buy the gun because you liked it and wanted it, or did you buy it just to flip it for some $$? One is a business move and the other is a hobby. The concept is not difficult.

This is not to say that DOJ won’t abuse the process. I expect they will. People on the far ends of the spectrum will be pretty easy to spot. The weekly gun show/flea market vendor can expect problems. An aging guy selling his old deer gun will be pretty safe. Those in between? Time will tell. You may be assured that Leftists will push the issue as far as judges and juries will allow. Unfortunately, it can still cost thousands to win in court.