MOGC linked this video in a thread running on the "Ask The Gunwriters" forum. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) is participating in the thread. I thought that others may not see it because of the forum and the particular thread in which it was linked. So, I am cross-posting here for those who missed it. It contains a lot of wisdom that was spread over many threads a few years ago after the now-famous incident with the bear while Phil was carrying a 9mm handgun loaded with +P hard cast ammo. Enjoy.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
Thanks, folks. I thought the whole thing was fascinating. I thought that the remarks about bear spray (starting around 27 minutes) were particularly interesting, coming from a person with so much experience with both guns and spray. (I suppose his clients that fateful day didn't have any spray.)
I will keep a link to his video handy to deal with heated debates on other forums involving handguns/rifles for bears and handguns versus OC spray. With respect to the former, I used to keep some links handy to some threads here. But, this video is a one stop shop!
On another forum, I already called this a "mic drop" video.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 04/20/24.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
MOGC linked this video in a thread running on the "Ask The Gunwriters" forum. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) is participating in the thread. I thought that others may not see it because of the forum and the particular thread in which it was linked. So, I am cross-posting here for those who missed it. It contains a lot of wisdom that was spread over many threads a few years ago after the now-famous incident with the bear while Phil was carrying a 9mm handgun loaded with +P hard cast ammo. Enjoy.
Excellent interview by Ron Spoomer
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
What I liked the most was Phil's simple no bullschitt answers to Ron's leading questions. Shoot the bear with a well constructed bullet in a place that will do the most good! LOL
Simplicity at it's finest....I would expect nothing less from Phil.
It won't cause me to, but it is affirmation for the heavy hard cast bullet and penetration. I accept his statement as good without any additional need for proof, based on his reputation alone.
My "most likely" is either a .45 Super or .460 Rowland, loaded with a 255 grain hard cast at 1075 to 1100 fps. In a Glock 21, that gives me at least 13 shots, 17 with the extended mags. I can run the Rowland up in speed, but recoil begins to slow repeat shot down. I don't quite have the "warm & fuzzies" with a .45+P with a 255 just yet. I'd like at least 1000 fps.
I do have a .44 Mag, but times between shots and time needed to reload are not as good as with the 45S/460R.
Would this cause anyone to change their outdoor carry gun to 9mm?
Change to a 9mm? No. Consider using one? Yes.
The lesson I took from this is that you have to be confident and proficient with whatever weapon you carry for self-defense. And you have to pick the right bullet for the task.
If you are going to carry a .44 Mag (or something similar), then be proficient with it. Practice with it. Get used to handling the recoil and putting quick follow-up shots into your target. It doesn't do any good to have "the most powerful handgun in the world, that could blow your head clean off" if you cannot shoot well with it under stress. Many people will derive a false sense of confidence from having a hand cannon, which will do them no good at all if they cannot place their shots quickly and accurately. I've personally never fired a .44 Magnum. It would be a terrible choice for me.
For many of us, that means that we might well be served carrying a smaller self-defense pistol than we would choose if we were deliberately going to hunt bears. The two situations are not the same. That is one of the major lessons I got from Phil's story. Phil and Ron were not advocating going hunting for big bears with a 9mm. They were explaining why it could be a good choice for a carry pistol and how to get the most out of it for self-defense.
My outdoor carry pistol is a Sig P226 in .357 Sig. I chose it because it offers the same ballistics as a .357 Magnum, but holds 12 shots. That's the same pistol I keep for home defense. When I carry it with me outdoors, I usually have 125-grain FMJ's in it. At home, I have 125-grain hollow points. I don't live in "big bear country" (only black bears and the occasional cougar around me). After watching the interview, I have thought a lot more about my bullet selection and will probably get some new 147-grain loads (and practice with them). I have other pistols I could carry, but I have put a couple of thousand rounds through the P226, so I feel confident and proficient with it. I've headshot many squirrels with it at ranges up to 25 yards (always nice to bring some meat home if the bucks won't cooperate). I don't find it much different than shooting the Beretta I carried through most of my military career (although the Sig has far better ergonomics to me). The Beretta is the only other pistol I own which I have fired more than my Sig. But it is larger and not as powerful and I just don't like it (I only bought it so I could practice with a Beretta in between annual qualifications). So, I carry the Sig. But loaded with the right bullets, that 15-shot Beretta would be a good choice for me as a carry weapon. I may not like it, but I can shoot it very well.
The day after the incident both my wife and daughter ask why I wasnβt carrying my 44 Mtn Gun ? I took them to our range and set half a dozen 2x4 scraps of lumber on the ground 10-15 feet away and then asked each to hit as many as they could, as quickly as possible and handed them my light weight S&W 44 . Then we did it with the 9mm.
Itβs a good exercise , especially if you can generate some adrenaline first
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
Any thoughts?
To me, I would only shoot a bear if it was a life or death situation. And if I am shooting in that circumstance, I want every chance to kill the damned thing before it kills me. I wouldn't waste my first shot on a non-lethal option. Ron Spomer also had a pretty good video on the penetration abilities of various cartridges, including shotgun slugs. They don't necessarily penetrate well enough in the head-on charge scenario to get through to a vital area.
Great video! Years ago, Phil wrote an article on handguns and bears. I thought at the time it made more sense than anything else I had ever seen and it still does.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
I carry a 12 guage 870 with truball deep penetrators. A couple of friends suggested having the first shot being a shot shell to hit them in the face with when they are charging. The idea is to blind them first. So my first shot is now a 2 shot nitro mag.
Any thoughts?
To me, I would only shoot a bear if it was a life or death situation. And if I am shooting in that circumstance, I want every chance to kill the damned thing before it kills me. I wouldn't waste my first shot on a non-lethal option. Ron Spomer also had a pretty good video on the penetration abilities of various cartridges, including shotgun slugs. They don't necessarily penetrate well enough in the head-on charge scenario to get through to a vital area.
Curious what slugs Ron was using. Have not seen that video yet. Not saying that you are not right.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
Can't disagree with that, but I don't think Phil's 9mm held 17 rounds. I don't carry any 17 round 9mm ever. Round count isn't why I carry 9mm. I don't think of it as a bear round either, but if it was all I had, all I could carry with the rest of my load, or all I could shoot well, I'd load it with Buffalo Bore for the outback and carry on.
To touch on the above videos. The one video compares the 2 3/4β truball deep penetrators and 3β mag slugs. They all penetrate 7 to 8 boards. So the 2 3/4β truball compares with the 3β mags that have regular soft lead.
The other video is one of three. The vloger had issues with a couple of bear encounters with a regular slug from a 2 3/4β chamber. He just uses jell with no barrier. Brenneke was 29β Truball was 32.5β Regular Super x was 14.5β
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
Can't disagree with that, but I don't think Phil's 9mm held 17 rounds. I don't carry any 17 round 9mm ever. Round count isn't why I carry 9mm. I don't think of it as a bear round either, but if it was all I had, all I could carry with the rest of my load, or all I could shoot well, I'd load it with Buffalo Bore for the outback and carry on.
When I moved to AK in 2006, I was told a 44 mag was the minimum for carry. I don't typically trust the minimum, so I went with a 460 S&W Mag. After carrying it 2 or 3 times I realized I didn't want to hike in fishing with what felt like the anchor for the USS Enterprise. I went to a S&W 329 PD 44 Mag and I got a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull customized by Wild West Guns. The 429 was no fun at all even with light loads, but was a pleasure to carry. After customization, the Ruger was easy to carry and a pleasure to shoot with 45Colt or 454. My last year, I had a Glock 20 that I carried exclusively. What Phil said above is what made me switch.
I had a friend up there that has been on every kind of hunt you can imagine and he had me do the same thing Phil said, but with my rifle. I had to set up paper plates at 50, 25, 15, 10, 5 yards and see if I could put a round in each one in under 7 seconds. Doesn't sound that hard, but its pretty difficult with a big bolt action. I got to thinking about it and I set up some stuff at 10-20 yards and did it with my pistols. That 429 PD was useless after the 1st shot. I couldn't get it back on target very well. The Super Redhawk was more manageable with the porting. I was much better with the Glock. I wasn't going to get 17 rounds in a charging bear, but I was better with it than the heavy caliber revolvers. And I wanted to extra mag capacity because of the exact situation Phil was in. I might have to defend my wife and son and I wanted as many bullets as possible and felt like I might need them if the adrenaline was pumping. I carried spray when I was going to be around bunches of people and I didn't think shooting would be safe. Like at the confluence of the Russian and Kenai during the sockeye run. Way too many people for lead to fly but some days there were plenty of bears around. I did carry a .357 for possible 2 legged critters with the spray though.
I now live in AR. My woods carry guns include 9mm (Glock and CZ), 10mm (Glock), .327 Fed Mag (Ruger), and 357 Mag (Ruger Speed Six). With hardcast rounds, I'm confident in any of those calibers for the black bears we have around here.
Since I've seen three black bears in the wild naturally I'm knowledgeable (NOT!) Biggest one was maybe 225 lbs small head biggesh looking ears 80 yards away I felt safe with my .260 and 140 grain corelokts backed up by my Ruger .45lc and 255 semiwadcutters. We don't have a season and the bears are protected but every year the population grows better to be safe than chomped.
Bangflop! another skinning job due to .260 and proper shot placement.
Here's the some simple math. Let's say a bear is at 25 yards (75feet) and charges you at 30mph (45feet per second). 75 feet/45feet per second = 1.67 seconds before you're bear food. Let's say you're a competition grand master shooter with weak 9mm target loads. At that skill level you'll be able to draw in 0.9 seconds, and have .25 second splits after that. So 1.67sec - 0.9 = 0.77 secs. 0.77/0.25 splits = 3 shots.
So if you are the best of the best of the best, you'll get three shots off in a 25 yard, full speed charge. And you'd have to be Jerry Miculek to stand a chance to have all three of those shots be in a vital zone on a moving target. Maybe as the thing is gnawing on you, you'll get another shot or two at point blank range. That's 5 shots. I don't get this 17 round magazine preference for this type of defense. I know I'm only going to get 1-2 hits on the bear, I figure shoot it with the most powerful thing I can, and that's not 9mm. First shot speed does not change with caliber.
As the boxes say, everyone has a plan - until they get hit
Thank you Mr shoemaker. Your insight is always intelligent. Apparently something peed in that bears coffee that particular morning. He was very angry. Glad it worked out for you and friends. Living, working and recreating around the weaponized GYA bears is challenging. Howβs the book coming?
Mr. Shoemaker I enjoyed the video. Kudos to you for keeping your composure and taking care of business!
For all interested, our very own Mackay Sagebrush (Lost River Ammunition Company) is loading 9mm+P 148 grain flat nose hard cast if youβre looking for some good ammo for your 9mm.
As mentioned, a bear isn't impressed by a miss in the dirt, if it's a full on attack you had better stay in the fight & use something you can hit with. If that's a big gun then you're ahead of the game, most people can't. Good bullets that penetrate can very well save your life. I set around camp last year in New Mexico & listened to Phil & he's very down to earth & still alive after decades of guiding, you can learn a lot if you listen.
