Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Where is the 25-08?

You're correct as always, JB. But your reasoning also makes the 7-08 "redundant." Yet, it sells pretty darn well. I'd bet the 25-08 would, too. Redundant or not.

Heck, as we have both pointed out many times, there's hardly any practical difference among dozens of currently chambered rounds. In essence, half the cartridges made today are redundant. Or more than half. Yet, there are markets for almost all of them, and it's darn hard to predict which new ones will succeed or fail. Some new ones eclipse older ones, and some new ones fade away while older ones persist. And, some new ones parade right along with the equally popular older ones, even though they are redundant.

I think in JB's comparison of the 7mm-08 and 7x57, the same argument could be made (and has) regarding the 257 and 25-308. I fully modern short 25 without the history (good or bad) of the 257. With a false reputation of low velocity loads, long action required, long throats, the 25-308 would benefit from a fresh start.

Occasionally you would see a factory 257 in a long action, don't know why the did this.

Remmy built this Bob on a short action.
[img][IMG]http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Kevin_Teed/257Bob.jpg[/img][/img]

The longer I own it, the more that I grow to appreciate the .257 Rbts. I originally started with factory ammo with the 117 or 120 gr. loads and that killed deer with little fuss. I then started handloading and found that the 100 gr. Hornady kills deer pretty darn well also. Now I tend to use 100 gr. for "regular" hunting and 115 gr. Partitions for "big deer"! Probably not a lick of difference, but gives me an excuse to do some loading!

Wait'll you see what a 75 VMax does to a chuck. Or how an 85 BT anchors a coyote right NOW. Like my 25-308 does.

Truly, the Souper and the Roberts are analogous to a Fuji and a Macintosh apple: one is a newer variety, but both are delicious.

257Bob,

When Remington made their yearly Classic rifle in the .257 Roberts, it was on a long 700 action, thus leaving over 3/4" of empty space in front of the round in the magazine. They did this because Remington's P.R. guy at the time, Dick Dietz, told the suits that "if they didn't make it on the long action, the gun nuts wouldn't buy 'em." I suspect Dick was right.

Other commercial .257's built on long actions may have been due to the same rationale. Other were made that way just because the company only made a certain action length. I had an FN Mauser .257 for a while in the early 1990's, made on the standard FN 98 action.

Maybe the .25-08 would be a success as a commercial cartridge. But it costs a LOT of money to bring out a new round, and many of the more recent introductions have been real flops. I dunno if any of the manufacturers would be willing to legitimize something that doesn't have a bunch of buzz already surrounding it.

Many of the wildcats that succeed as commercial rounds already have that buzz. In fact, the buzz is what brings them to the attention of the major companies. Sometimes this has to go on for decades before some company takes a chance with, say, the .22-250 or .25-06. But sometimes it doesn't. The .300 WSM was not an inspiration from on high at Winchester. It was a direct outgrowth of several short-fat cartridges, including the Lazzeronis and the Jamison series.

Similarly, the 7mm-08 had a lot of such buzz before Remington ran with it. So did the .243 Winchester and 6mm Remington, and the 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum. All of these grew out of shooters interest that essentially DEMANDED the factories bring out those rounds.

I don't think the .25-08 has that buzz, despite the people promoting it here. Just out of curiousity, how many of you who think it should be legitimized ALREADY have a .25-08?

Since when has the fact that there was no need for a particular cartridge ever gotten in the way ?

I've never owned a Bob, but I used to own a 6mm Remington on a Rem 700 SA. That cartridge had a lot of things that were pretty desirable, but I did not like the fact that I could not load to the cartridge design Max COL (2.825") without having feeding issues within the magazine. This was due to the short Remington box. A 257 Roberts (or 6mm Rem, or 7x57, et.al) on a Winchester SA would make a lot more sense to me due to the significantly longer box. If the 257 Roberts was as readily available as the 7mm-08, I'd have one by now - considering the ballistics, for deer hunting it is hard to imagine anything more suitable. Given the right box length, there is nothing to recommend a 25-08 over the Bob other than maybe a minutia difference in action weights based on manufacturer.

Given all the aforementioned logic about standardizing the 25-08, don't the same arguments apply to the 270 Redding, aka 27-08. Seems to me the better mouse trap would be the 270WSM necked down to 25.

Everyone seems to keep pining for a 25WSM. Didn't I read somewhere that Winchester investigated the 25WSM and the cartridge had pressure spike problems or something?? Or maybe I just dreamed that.

Mule Deer,

"Just out of curiousity, how many of you who think it should be legitimized ALREADY have a .25-08?"

I don't because I have owned several of the following.

250-3000
257
257imp
25-06
257 wby

My point is that I had some fun with wildcats but I am no longer willing to build rifles that require brass that does not match the stamp on the barrrel. I had some fun experimenting but now I am culling the herd and sticking with just a few cartridges. I like just about any 25cal.

Rifle loonieism has nothing to do with logic and general fun at the loading bench but I do try to apply logic to this case.

If 25s have a good history in the US, say the 250-3000, 257, 25-06 and 257 wby, why not a 25 on the very popular 308 case.

Certainly, it's not going to change the world but it makes sense to me for the reasons I tried to explain in previous posting on this subject.

I am convinced that if you decided that you could honestly like a 25-308 and use one with regularity and wrote about it on occasion, a market could be built to support a commercial cartridge.

It would not happen overnight but I do belive it would take. the 243 is a fine deer cartridge but it still has some folks say it is not enough for deer or make excuses for poor shooting.

I think the 25-308 could steal some of the 243s thunder and you are just the guy who could get it done.

I bought three 6.5x55s after reading your articles, on three occasions!

YES- and then brought back the Bob.

I have a safe full of rifles. If all that was available was the 30-06, I would have one rifle. If you want to sell me another rifle, offer it in an interesting chambering.

The only ruger I own is chambered in 7.62x39. Because of the unique chambering (at least for bolt action rifles), Ruger sold me a rifle.

We dont need R&D to build better guns, just more quality control. the 100 year old mauser 98 design is fine, just finish it well, fit it well, bed it well and offer it in a walnut stock with some figure. quality, not technology!

Really, I don't need any more, I have enough model 70s to last me and my sons. Hunted all deer season in GA, almost 12 weeks long, with a brand spanking new win 70 in 257 wby with a zeiss classic scope.

never fired a shot!

I think rem was right track with their classic line, offered in a unique chambering annually. folks bought those rifles just to get the chambering and start a collection.

winchester should have done the same. I would have bought one every year.

my win classic list would have looked something like this;

220 swift
240 wby mag
257 roberts
257 wby mag
264 win mag
270 wby mag
7x57
300 h&h

I would have to be creative from there!

To my way of thinking, that kind of "smoke and mirrors" hype is part of what is done wrong with new cartridge introductions. I would much rather see and hear the advertisments say exactly what are the real advantages of the cartridge. I would think that many folks would appreciate some honesty for a change. In the case of the 25-08, the ads could incklude words like:

- "low recoil but plenty of power for deer out to 300 yards or more"
- "short-action cartridge that is perfect in lightweight rifles"
- "perfect deer rifle"
- "a little larger than the 243, but just as flat-shooting and with similar recoil"
- "performance like the 257 roberts but in a handier short-action rifle"

comparisons to other cartridges like the 250 savage, 257 roberts, and 25-06 can be stated positively and made into assets. there are a lot of guys out there that hold the 250 savage and 25-06 in high regard. i would think that showing all three rounds in an add with a comparison of velocities and trajectories would be a good thing - like dropping a good name during an interview (something that i know works very well). i don't think it is necessary to try to convince folks that the 25-08 is somehow better than a 25-06. the 25-08 is a neat idea. i think it will fly on it's own merit. just accentuate the positive.

-

Just for the record, I'm not sure it would or could be a successful commercial round. But I can vouch that's a very easy, very useful and very pleasant round to have. It's an "easycat" for those wishing to dip their toes into wild waters for the first time. It's a nearly perfect rifle for a small-statured shooter. It's got just a wisp of snob appeal. It's just a good, honest cartridge with a broad range of uses. That's enough.

Big Redhead,

But that is exactly the sort of hype everything gets these days.

Also, Please explain how I could provide a reasoned argument for the virtues of the .25-08, with the .257 Roberts already filling that slot.

I am not saying it wouldn't be fine round. But I doubt any manufacturer is going to invest several hundred thousand dollars in a new commercial cartridge that, aside from irrelevant differences in shoulder angle and length, has no advantages over an already existing cartridge. After all, the .257 Bob isn't exactly dead. The best that could be expected for the .25-08 is as a niche cartridge, and the .257 already fills that slot.

Also, the ballistically redundant cartridges introduced in recent years have at least had SOMETHING different about them, mostly the ability to fit in shorter actions. Now, admittedly the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag really doesn't do anything the .300 Weatherby doesn't--but it also doesn't have that evil belt. So there's a selling point right (and some people seem to be convinced that belts ARE evil), along with slightly greater powder capacity. Which is why the .300 RUM still sells. It sells relatively slowly, but it sells.

But the .25-08 does not fit in a shorter action than the .257 Roberts, and the Bob does not have an evil belt. Plus, .257 brass is cheap and available, and today's factory loads are probably the best there have ever been available. Enough .257 rifles are produced to apparently fill the demand.

The .25 WSSM was supposed to fit in the .257's ballistic slot (or least the ballistic slot of the handloaded .257, which is where the .25-08 would go). It fell flat on its face, despite fitting in a really short action and supposedly being super-accurate. If the PR maschine couldn't convince the rifle-buying public that the .25 WSSM was The Answer, with all the hoopla about short cartridges over the past few years, what chance would the .25-08 have?

You're right. There has been too much smoke and mirrors in the past few years, and I suspect even a "reasoned" attempt at selling the virtues of the .25-08 would result in a big, "Oh, yeah?" from everybody except the looniest of rifle loonies.

John, what you have explained about the .257 rob., does not jell with the general shooting public. They believe it needs to come in a long action to handle 120 gn. pills, this is to them reinforced by the fact that the parentcase, (no one tells them the 2.8" story), 7 x 57 mm needs a medium / long action, it also getrs baggage due to its weak association to the 244 rem, it is only available intermittently in a POS Ruger, uses expensive and hard to obtain (compared to 08) cases if you are a reloader, has limited options in factory ammo....the list goes on. It can't get much worse. Apart from loonies the roberts is dead...

The .25 souper would not suffer from all this baggage. Would it be much better than a .243 or a .260. this depends on your marketing department.

PS. i have a .257 rob ai but would rather have had a .25 souper, so am not anti .25.

Get it with the right SA and there is no issue with the Bob vs the Souper. I agree with JB on this, how many out in this admittedly rifle loonie forum have one of the new T/C 30 cartridges? Why bother with something that is essentially already out there in the 308? was most people's reaction (including mine). Maybe this cartridge would sell, it is definitely high on "cool", but so is the Bob. Even if it is old. Today's bullets and higher pressure loadings have turned the Bob into one of my want guns, it just needs the right platform, which I ain't seen yet. Ought to be awesome on yotes and white tails.

maybe i missed something, but the only current 257 bob rifle i know of is the ruger m77 long action. that means to me the selling point of the 25-08 is 257 bob performance in a short action rifle. if i am wrong, then name one current short action rifle in 257 bob.

-