Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Bench Rest Bullets

Okay...let's back up and try a different approach to this, okay?

Blaine, you stated:



My reply was:



Your response was:



Putting aside the wrong turn it took from there, let's concentrate on the question at hand....sound okay? Don't read anything into the next part that isn't there...like Joe Friday used to say: "Just the facts, ma'am."

So...elaborate on your last statement. You've stated that there aren't any attributes to a jacketed core target bullet that makes them more desireable for accuracy use. I'm assuming that you have some real-World results to back that statement up or else you wouln't have made such a sweeping generalization.

Please include your testing and/or match results with both types of bullets, pros and cons of both types of bullet construction, construction details, etc. In short, anything you feel is pertinent to this discussion.

Good shootin'. -Al

One would assume there would be no issues with jacket concentricity, and that there would be no way to have an ubalanced bullet with a solid bullet. Barnes TSX have shot extremely well for me so far as such bullet. Some other CNC bullets have shot Extremely poorly for me.

BUT if good jacket material is used and swaged correctly the way I understand it, then jacket issues are a non issue and the bullet will be made just as well as any other bullet could ever be made.

I am not sure if swaging to fit the bore on firing actually helps the cup and core bullet any, but I would think it to be possible.

Jeff there's a big difference between " extremely well for me so far as such bullet" and putting 5 shots into a .1" group at 100 yards or having the ability to drill a 1/16" dot at the same range. We're talking Benchrest accuracy, not minute-of-dead-critter accuracy.

Al,

Fair enough. An Internet Blog can be an awkward way to communicate at times........



Acutally, I didn't say that at all. As an answer to the original poster, I did say: "There is no reason a precisely made brass or copper bullet couldn't shoot very well........"

Then I started asking questions if there were any solid copper or brass bullets used in 50 cal competition. I remember seeing such bullets but I don't have any knowledge whether they are used in competition or not.

My reply to you of "No there aren't" with the smily faces was 1000% humor. I wasn't sure of the intent of your post and humor is a normally a very good way to stop things from going ugly--and it looked to me like that is where they were headed. I had no idea my post with smileys would generate anywhere near the kind of response it did.

The only experience I have with solid bullets are X bullets, TSX bullets, and Groove bullets. There are all hunting bullets. The TSX shoots well and the Groove very well, but not at a BR level of accuracy. I used Sierra Matchkings for NBRSA 1K BR, though I did try some Bergers. I had outstanding success with a 300 WSM light gun shooting 220 SMKs that I sorted by ogive and trimmed with a metplat trimmer.

With the above paragraph for reference, I could see a solid, lathe turned bullet potentially having a couple advantages. They might be made more precisely eliminating the need to sort them by ogive. They might not need the metplats trimmed. They also might have better internal concentricity, since there would be no core/jacket thickness inconsistencies.

However, I imagine making such a bullet would be very time consuming and thus very spendy.

Now today I did look at a box of Lapua match bullets in 6.5mm, and they looked like their noses were all the same. The gunshop owner said they all measured very consistently.

I do know this. If I get back into long range competition shooting, I would definitely pay more money for a bullet I did not have to sort by ogive or trim for length.

'Morning.

That's a pretty long list of "mights" that would have to happen.

Once the method of making jacketed/cored accuracy bullets is understood, it becomes clear why this design does so many things 'right'. Initial work on the 'swage up' style of bullet making was done by Jonas Halgrimsson and perfected by Ray Biehler and Walt Astles. The B&A method provides a way for the core to be in a constant state of radial tension. This tension is exerted on the core by the physical properties of the jacket and the dimensional differences between the core seating die and the point-up die. There can also be some longitudinal tension on the core depending on the length of the core...if the core extends past the ogive, for example.

No need to bore people with a bunch of blah, blah about accuracy bullet making, though. People interested in more detailed explanations of the process can read some excellent articles in the Benchrest Shooting Primer, The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page and The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy by Glenn Newick. There are also some great answers to the process on Benchrest Central by some of the nations best bullet makers.
Bullet making

Glenn Newick's book can be found on the shelves of most Barnes and Nobles stores. The Benchrest Shooting Primer is in most Sportsmans Warehouse stores. The Accurate Rifle was reprinted by Precision Shooting some years back..don't know if it's still available or not.

There are a lot of myths and urban legend 'truths' about bullet making.

Good shootin'. -Al

AJ

To be clear, never intended to say TSX were BR bullets, only that they for a monolithic shot very well, along the lines of .3 give or take at 100 in some hunting rifles with non prepped brass and non weighed loads. By the same token another hot CNC bullet, can't recall the name, but came 20 to a box in a carboard box, each one in a foam cutout and with tips sharp enough to draw blood...ask me how I know...... did not shoot well at ALL. To be fair they may have shot well if one would have the chamber and rifling set up to benefit that type of bullet but I didn't waste time.

Jeff

I have Newick's book. I have also seen them at wal-mart.

Back to my question. Could a lathe turned, all copper/brass/gilding metal solid bullet be made as or more precisely than a cup and core bullet?

In the context of dimensional consistency....yes.

Will that translate to better on-target performance from this type of bullet over a conventional bullet....no.

Good shootin'. -Al

Is there any reason why a precisely made solid bullet would NOT shoot as well as a cup and core bullet?

If you're talking about hunting accuracy, yes.

If you're talking about BR accuracy levels...well, I would never say never. But to this point, bullets of this type have never yet shown the accuracy needed to be even remotely in the ballpark. Pointing to the 50's that use this type of bullet is a dead end, as a quick look of the record groups fired by the 50's and comparing them to the IBS/NBRSA records fired with calibers using 'conventional' bullets will show.

There's a wealth of info in the late Robert McCoy's work (McDrag, McGryro, etc.) and the excellent JBM Ballistics site is based off this work. A visit to the JBM site, a bullets as 'samples' to input data from and a half hours time can be pretty enlightening. Working backward from the Ballisticians Model of Perfection (1.5 G.S. number) or foward to that number from the Drag/Twist calculations can be an eyeopener.

Much of the recent 'rebirth' of the .30 cals. dominance in 100-300 BR shooting was based on this work and perfected in the Real World by R.G. 'Randy' Robinett of BIB Bullets fame. So..it's not smoke and mirrors and 'on paper' ballistics mumbo jumbo. It works. Physics is pretty unforgiving..and it's hard to repeal the known laws of the universe.

I've got 1,000 .30's to point up...hope I remember which end the point goes on.

Good shootin'. -Al

So I'm barging in again, but lets assume you did machine a perfect CNC bullet, what would be the reason a cup and core would still be better? Obturation?

Simply curious.

Al,

I don't know if the 50s are still using a solid bullet. I don't think the Hornday Amax is a solid. Regardless, I think there are a lot of other factors in play that allow us 1K 30 cal shooters to mop the floor with the big 50s at 1K. Recoil is one factor. Another is the bigger the bullet, the more potential error certain defects can cause. Upset from muzzle blast would also be greater with the big 50.

The amax 50 cal is not a solid.