Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Bench Rest Bullets

It has been several years since I competed in bench rest. We used hand made core and jacket bullets.

I have read that the solid bullets, such as the TSX and others are getting a reputation for very accurate hunting bullets.

Does anyone know if there has been any testing and development on using bullets of this type for bench rest competition?

It would seem logical that if they are more accurate for hunting purposes, they would be an improvement over core and jacket bullets for competition.

I haven't heard of anyone winning in competition with TSX type bullets. If it happens you'll see a lot of folks make the switch if it's a world record size group.

I was mainly wondering if anyone is doing any research on it. Looks like there might be some potential, going by what I have read about accuracy with the hunting size TSX type.

Yes, if matches start being won with them, then that will be all you see before long.

I shot a bunch of what I recall as PRL bullets, super high BC, turned CNC solid bullets. Tips so sharp they would draw blood. I never really found them to be as accurate as cup and core match bullets, though to be really fair, no one worked up the right throat, twist, and land groove issues specifically for them... but at that time(about 13 years ago) they were over 1 buck each.... I was trying to get a solid load around .5 moa and fast out of them, and then use them only on horrible days.

I have some left in a box.... somewhere. Not impressed at all.
Damn near lost a match by tinkering with em too.

Jeff

Wow, I have never had tsx shoot better than acceptable for hunting. I cant imagine anyone using them 100-200 benchrest much less long range. I did find that some of the .22s shoot better than the 30s and 7mms and 6mms did, but .25 groups are not going to win anything in decent conditions. Barnes used to make a 55gr fbhp with a blue coating of some type that shot better than any of the tsx have shot for me, but I never tried them in a ppc.

Some day in the future when the Anti's get lead outlawed someone will develop one that shoots well.

But when that happens we won't have lead batterys in our cars either. Mass transit hello. They won't like us carrying our guns to the range on the bus.

There is no reason a precisely made brass or copper bullet couldn't shoot very well, but that would be spendy! In fact, don't the 50 cal BR guys shoot such bullets at times.

To the best of my knowledge PRL bullets were not CNC lathe turned. They were however made on copper jackets with Tungsten cores. The point-up dye was made by Ferris Pindell and closed up the normal hollow point, generally seen on BR and match grade bullets. This feature helped the bullets to remain super-sonic out to 1K when fired from the 300 Win. According to "Bubba" Beall, the main driving force behind Powell River Labs, these bullets were deadly on game. He shot moose and elk at long ranges and had great success with them.

Doc,

Welcome to the Campfire!

Barnes makes 750 and 800 grain target bullets? Are these all copper, and are they used in competition?

No one is using solid core bullets or TSX in BR. Everyone uses custom made cup and core bullets with J4 jackets. Many shooters make there own.

LC

The Barnes 50 BMG bullets are solid copper. Any idea of that they are used for?

Actually, there are quite a few reasons why jacketed lead cored bullets are more desireable for accuracy use. -Al

No there aren't.............

Blaine, please list the reasons why a solid copper bullet (machined or otherwise) is a better choice for accuracy use.

Good shootin'. -Al

Al, Blaine has never shot a short range benchrest match in his life. His outlook should be trully interesting (and eye-opening).

The Barnes 50 BMG bullets are solid copper. Any idea of that they are used for?
_________________________
I have zero experience with 50's other than a long time ago under not match conditions. All the ranges that I frequent do not allow 50's. Re solid core bullets..they may be accurate but I have never seen any used in any matches. Will be at the Williamsport 1000yd world open this w/e and see if anyone is using them. But I doubt it.

LC

IBS and NBRSA 1000 yd. rules limits bore sizes to 40 cal. and under.

I'm assuming Williamport is the same.

Al

First off, I did not say solid copper bullets were better for accuracy. As an answer to the OP, I said: "There is no reason a precisely made brass or copper bullet couldn't shoot very well........"

Second, your reply me stuck me as pissy and I am too old to put up with pissy attitudes. However, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you didn't have a pissy thought in your head when you posted, and thus respond to you with humorous post.

You did not pick up on the humor. If you had, you'd have known that your proper response for my reply would have been: "Yes there are..........." or perhaps "Yes there are, nanna nanna poo poo....." with a couple of smileys added to make sure the humour was obvious.

With that in mind, why don't you respond to my post again with the proper humour, you tiny-minded wiper of bottoms.......... ?

Blaine, to say I'm taken aback by your response would be quite an understatement.

There was no "pissy attitude" in my post...only a simple question asking you to elaborate on your statement. No more, no less. Anyone that has read any of my postings on several different forums knows that I don't stoop to the kind of small minded, mean spirited responses that we see all too often on the Internet. When topics take that turn, I simply cease my participation. And while no person is perfect, I don't believe people that know me on a personal level would refer to me as having a "...pissy attitude" or of being a "...tiny-minded wiper of bottoms", as you put it.

Finally, as a BR bullet maker, I'm always looking for ways to advance my craft and generate better results. Your statement seemed to indicate that you have some personal knowledge and/or experience with a type of bullet that may be of interest to me and others in the sport. Since this forum is ostensibly for the sharing of information, I assumed you would want to be forthcoming with ideas, experiences, and thoughts about this topic.

My assumption was in error. -Al

You missed the whole part where I said:

"However, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you didn't have a pissy thought in your head when you posted, and thus respond to you with humorous post."

So are you really so wrapped up in being "taken aback" that you can't see humour? Do you REALLY not know where the phrase "you are a tiny-minded wiper of bottoms comes from?

I recommend you lighten up.

Okay...let's back up and try a different approach to this, okay?

Blaine, you stated:



My reply was:



Your response was:



Putting aside the wrong turn it took from there, let's concentrate on the question at hand....sound okay? Don't read anything into the next part that isn't there...like Joe Friday used to say: "Just the facts, ma'am."

So...elaborate on your last statement. You've stated that there aren't any attributes to a jacketed core target bullet that makes them more desireable for accuracy use. I'm assuming that you have some real-World results to back that statement up or else you wouln't have made such a sweeping generalization.

Please include your testing and/or match results with both types of bullets, pros and cons of both types of bullet construction, construction details, etc. In short, anything you feel is pertinent to this discussion.

Good shootin'. -Al

One would assume there would be no issues with jacket concentricity, and that there would be no way to have an ubalanced bullet with a solid bullet. Barnes TSX have shot extremely well for me so far as such bullet. Some other CNC bullets have shot Extremely poorly for me.

BUT if good jacket material is used and swaged correctly the way I understand it, then jacket issues are a non issue and the bullet will be made just as well as any other bullet could ever be made.

I am not sure if swaging to fit the bore on firing actually helps the cup and core bullet any, but I would think it to be possible.

Jeff there's a big difference between " extremely well for me so far as such bullet" and putting 5 shots into a .1" group at 100 yards or having the ability to drill a 1/16" dot at the same range. We're talking Benchrest accuracy, not minute-of-dead-critter accuracy.

Al,

Fair enough. An Internet Blog can be an awkward way to communicate at times........



Acutally, I didn't say that at all. As an answer to the original poster, I did say: "There is no reason a precisely made brass or copper bullet couldn't shoot very well........"

Then I started asking questions if there were any solid copper or brass bullets used in 50 cal competition. I remember seeing such bullets but I don't have any knowledge whether they are used in competition or not.

My reply to you of "No there aren't" with the smily faces was 1000% humor. I wasn't sure of the intent of your post and humor is a normally a very good way to stop things from going ugly--and it looked to me like that is where they were headed. I had no idea my post with smileys would generate anywhere near the kind of response it did.

The only experience I have with solid bullets are X bullets, TSX bullets, and Groove bullets. There are all hunting bullets. The TSX shoots well and the Groove very well, but not at a BR level of accuracy. I used Sierra Matchkings for NBRSA 1K BR, though I did try some Bergers. I had outstanding success with a 300 WSM light gun shooting 220 SMKs that I sorted by ogive and trimmed with a metplat trimmer.

With the above paragraph for reference, I could see a solid, lathe turned bullet potentially having a couple advantages. They might be made more precisely eliminating the need to sort them by ogive. They might not need the metplats trimmed. They also might have better internal concentricity, since there would be no core/jacket thickness inconsistencies.

However, I imagine making such a bullet would be very time consuming and thus very spendy.

Now today I did look at a box of Lapua match bullets in 6.5mm, and they looked like their noses were all the same. The gunshop owner said they all measured very consistently.

I do know this. If I get back into long range competition shooting, I would definitely pay more money for a bullet I did not have to sort by ogive or trim for length.

'Morning.

That's a pretty long list of "mights" that would have to happen.

Once the method of making jacketed/cored accuracy bullets is understood, it becomes clear why this design does so many things 'right'. Initial work on the 'swage up' style of bullet making was done by Jonas Halgrimsson and perfected by Ray Biehler and Walt Astles. The B&A method provides a way for the core to be in a constant state of radial tension. This tension is exerted on the core by the physical properties of the jacket and the dimensional differences between the core seating die and the point-up die. There can also be some longitudinal tension on the core depending on the length of the core...if the core extends past the ogive, for example.

No need to bore people with a bunch of blah, blah about accuracy bullet making, though. People interested in more detailed explanations of the process can read some excellent articles in the Benchrest Shooting Primer, The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page and The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy by Glenn Newick. There are also some great answers to the process on Benchrest Central by some of the nations best bullet makers.
Bullet making

Glenn Newick's book can be found on the shelves of most Barnes and Nobles stores. The Benchrest Shooting Primer is in most Sportsmans Warehouse stores. The Accurate Rifle was reprinted by Precision Shooting some years back..don't know if it's still available or not.

There are a lot of myths and urban legend 'truths' about bullet making.

Good shootin'. -Al

AJ

To be clear, never intended to say TSX were BR bullets, only that they for a monolithic shot very well, along the lines of .3 give or take at 100 in some hunting rifles with non prepped brass and non weighed loads. By the same token another hot CNC bullet, can't recall the name, but came 20 to a box in a carboard box, each one in a foam cutout and with tips sharp enough to draw blood...ask me how I know...... did not shoot well at ALL. To be fair they may have shot well if one would have the chamber and rifling set up to benefit that type of bullet but I didn't waste time.

Jeff

I have Newick's book. I have also seen them at wal-mart.

Back to my question. Could a lathe turned, all copper/brass/gilding metal solid bullet be made as or more precisely than a cup and core bullet?

In the context of dimensional consistency....yes.

Will that translate to better on-target performance from this type of bullet over a conventional bullet....no.

Good shootin'. -Al

Is there any reason why a precisely made solid bullet would NOT shoot as well as a cup and core bullet?

If you're talking about hunting accuracy, yes.

If you're talking about BR accuracy levels...well, I would never say never. But to this point, bullets of this type have never yet shown the accuracy needed to be even remotely in the ballpark. Pointing to the 50's that use this type of bullet is a dead end, as a quick look of the record groups fired by the 50's and comparing them to the IBS/NBRSA records fired with calibers using 'conventional' bullets will show.

There's a wealth of info in the late Robert McCoy's work (McDrag, McGryro, etc.) and the excellent JBM Ballistics site is based off this work. A visit to the JBM site, a bullets as 'samples' to input data from and a half hours time can be pretty enlightening. Working backward from the Ballisticians Model of Perfection (1.5 G.S. number) or foward to that number from the Drag/Twist calculations can be an eyeopener.

Much of the recent 'rebirth' of the .30 cals. dominance in 100-300 BR shooting was based on this work and perfected in the Real World by R.G. 'Randy' Robinett of BIB Bullets fame. So..it's not smoke and mirrors and 'on paper' ballistics mumbo jumbo. It works. Physics is pretty unforgiving..and it's hard to repeal the known laws of the universe.

I've got 1,000 .30's to point up...hope I remember which end the point goes on.

Good shootin'. -Al

So I'm barging in again, but lets assume you did machine a perfect CNC bullet, what would be the reason a cup and core would still be better? Obturation?

Simply curious.

Al,

I don't know if the 50s are still using a solid bullet. I don't think the Hornday Amax is a solid. Regardless, I think there are a lot of other factors in play that allow us 1K 30 cal shooters to mop the floor with the big 50s at 1K. Recoil is one factor. Another is the bigger the bullet, the more potential error certain defects can cause. Upset from muzzle blast would also be greater with the big 50.

The amax 50 cal is not a solid.