Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 300 yard groups, What are your expectations?

I have some questions in regards to a new rifle I've been shooting at 300 yards.

I've been testing different bullets in my newer Ti
300 WSM and have found a pretty consistent performer in the 200 AB's at 2,900 fps using Norma brass, Win primer, and N-165.


The rifle shoots 6's at 100 and at 300 yards 1.5" as these target's show. Each target has been shot once every evening for the past 4 days. First target is in the middle those around it
show two shots together and a third out.
Anybody have any idea as to why? What can I do different to bring it in?

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/300WSM300yard001.jpg[/img][/img]


It would seem that 300 yards should be the starting point for a
long range hunting rifle, not 100 yards.

Question, what are your expectations for a 300 yard group out of your long range hunting rifles?

The reason I ask is I've been seriously contemplating putting together a "heavy" 12 lb rifle. But as I keep shooting this
8 lb set up I have to ask "Will I be redundant? Will I gain anything? with the idea I can shrink these 300 yard groups to an inch.

What would I gain with a heavier rifle with 1000 yards in mind?

I've already killed a bear at 590 yards with this rifle and it just wants to shoot I think better than I can.

edited to add,

The reason for the target grouping disparity on different areas of the targets, I was dropping down to 100 and adjusting my scope
for some Bergers I was shooting.

Only 1.5" at 300? Must be those crappy Nosler seconds. (grin)

Half MOA at 300yds with a sporter isn't anything to sneeze at.

SU:I'll take a stab at this,although i suspect the hardcore target shooters will know more and give a better answer.

I read an article by David Tubbs the other day concerning why the smaller calibers(6mm)in smaller cases are doing better in 1000 yard competition than the larger,faster 30 caliber stuff.He stated(and I am working from memory here)that for years we thought high velocity and heavy bullets with big powder charges were the way to go. But he also noted that 30 caliber magnums were known for high and low misses, ie out of the group shots etc.

He postulates that such shots come as a result powder charges that were too large to consistently ignite uniformly,along with the attendant inconsistent vibration patterns they set up in the rifle.Heavier recoil,he felt, also contributes to the problem.These "problems" are lessened by smaller powder charges,slower velocities(I think he was shooting a 107 gr(?) bullet at a hair over 3000 fps in his 6mm/250 Savage creation).

Target shooters always talk about acheiving very consistent velocities because wide velocity spreads cause high or low hits at very long range.So, it could be that all these factors sort of aggregate and start to show themselves at 300 yards,which,as you point out, is sort of the arbitrary "begining" of long range, where everything has to be "perfect"to maintain that 1/2 MOA you are seeking.

If Tubbs notices this stuff with match grade bullets,and heavier target barrels and highly tuned, specialized rifles,we can only assume that we will be plagued by "flyers" in our 8lb hunting rifles.I think the accuracy you're getting speaks volumes about the quality of the gear you're using, but the consistency of your handloads,and your ability as a shooter as well.

My expectations at 300 and 400 yards may be a bit less stringent than yours, mostly because I shoot field prone at 300 and 400 yards,which is to say the forened of the rifle is supported by my left hand, over a sandbag,and the butt is pulled into my shoulder with no rear bag at all.This helps simulate the way I would shoot in the field,while hunting, over a log or other improvised rest, because I do not carry a a bipod.I also shoot these distances looped up ina sling.

That said, if rifle and load are good,and I am on my game, I expect the rifle to hold about 3-4" for 3 shots, fired in rapid succession, at 300 yards;400 yard groups will stay in 4-8",depending mostly on me.At 500 and beyond, I need the bags locked in solidly,front and rear.Most recently I had a M70 Standard grade 30/06 hold into about 7" at 600 yards.The other day I fired a 7mm Dakota and 300 Weatherby this way(field prone) and the 7mm stayed at about 4" for 5 shots at 300 yards;the 300 Weatherby did about 3.5" for 3 shots at 300 yards. Scopes were 6X and 4X Leupolds.

So, I think you're getting very good accuracy from your WSM,and considering that it is a(relatively)light rifle,shooting a heavy bullet in front of a "large" powder charge, all the factors discussed above are starting to come into play,and for tiny GROUPS at long range,more rifle and smaller cartridges may be required, if we follow Tubbs theories; or at least a heavier 300 WSM(?)

None of this may be here nor there,because I would watch where the first two shots from a cold barrel go; most hunting situations at long range are settled within the first two shots, if we do things right.

I don't know how much of this is right, but hope it helped!

A heavy rifle is easier to shoot accurately, because once you have them on target they stay on target better than a light rifle. A light rifle can be just as accurate, but will be harder to shoot as accurate. A group of .477 MOA at 300 yards is not a bad thing in fact, that dog will hunt

I also use 300 yards as the distance to determine choosing between two loads, two rifles, etc.
I think 1.5" is excellent. Don't know what power of scope you are using, but if you increased the power you might shrink the size of the group (but it is already tiny).

I use five shot groups because they will give you about the same size pattern as a 10 shot group. I really feel strongly that a 3 shot group is not enough shots to make decisions from.

Also, shooting once into the target on different days gives you more of a real world idea where the first hunting shot will go from a cold barrel, but your groups may be larger because the wind will be different on the other days.

More recoil is always harder to shoot as your body plays a part in the accuracy by far. If the body does not react evenly every shot, the accuracy won't be there. Folks tend to tense up more and have a harder time repeating the same tension and body postiion with a mag, they are generally more relaxed with a smaller round and less recoil.

That being said, what Tubb said about the large charges and ignition has been common knowledge for many years... it was the reason Creighton Audette(or was is someone else) played with flash tubes and proved they could be a plus, but were a PITA at the same time....

Expectations for a long range rig are under MOA for a light rig out to say 600 yards and be happy. FOr a heavy rig under .5 moa to 600 yards.

AS to whats going on with your loads... that could be many tiny things. Bolt handle bumping, incorrect torque on bedding screws, needing a different primer or neck tension or seating depth issues, unfortunately at that point where you are good, but not great it takes a lot of monkeying around... and on a high volume hunting rifle you could burn the tube up trying to get rid of that.
Question is, how important is it to you, to be rid of that? IF its worth a barrel, then play, if you are limiting shots to 600-800 yards, it won't matter really..
BTW the comment on scope power, and I think you'll agree to an extent... I used to think I had to have scope power, found out by shooting iron sights that while you think you might be better with lots of power, you really don't loose much capability with lower power or even iron sights. It just doesn't look as good to the brain...

JEff

+1 I have done this, shot out my favorite barrel tweaking it.

It would seem ideal to keep your fine hunting rig as is, and get a second with a varmint barrel to play with. But it may or may not shoot any better.

I think that's pretty solid advice right there! When consistent 1/2 to 3/4 MOA can be achieved in a hunting rig, regardless of weight, I think I'd call it a day and go hunting! I know I've burned up a lot of time and components pursuing those tight little cloverleaf's and the "law of diminishing returns" has certainly summarized my results for the most part.

Kevin

These are great answers guys and give me a bunch to chew on.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post.

This rifle likes 200 grain bullets and I'm going to keep it that way.




Now here's an interesting one, a load using 168 Berger VLD's and Hunter powder.

I loaded 6 rounds and shot 3 at 100 for a .8, then I shot the 300 yard group shown in photo. It went from good to "what the heck happened!" 3 shots were scattered like a shotgun.

Gotta wonder why,

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/300target.jpg[/img][/img]

That is normally what happens to a lot of good 100 yard loads when shot at the longer ranges, thats why I test'em at 300 yards.

Yeah, I've done this a many a time and always wondered why.

That's why I shoot em' at 300 too!

As I see your posted targets, all look the same. First thing I would do is determin which shot was out of the group.Ist, 2nd,or 3rd? If it`s the first, cold clean barrel, or just cold barrel. Thats acceptable. You need to spot each shot tho, to find this out. I would also shoot four rounds, just to see where the forth goes. If it falls out of the group, I would play with seating depth, after checking my beding. I`ve rifles that did exactly what yours is doing,and it would drive me nuts. Beding or seating depth fixed it.
As for the Burgers at 300, small 100 yrd groups do not nessessarly guarintee small 300 yrd groups. So I would do some more work on load developement.
BTB..when trying different seat depths, move the bullet up too 20ths, and make sure you measure OAL, your cartridges, so you have a reference to return to. I normally start just off the lands, and work backward, or deeper into the case.I will load three rounds, just off the lands, and three 20ths in. These groups will tell you what your rifle likes. Refine from that info.

If I really had to tweak a hunting tube down, I'd haul it to the local BR guy and lop a half inch off and recrown first and see if the vibrations came together better....

One other comment, even with Berger bullets the ogive can vary, I won't even think of trying any loads within 10-15TH of the rifling either way. I"m at least 20th off or 20th in or more.

Jeff

It can be somewhat amusing watching reactions of people shoot the longer ranges for the first time, when their 1" @ 100 load groups 8" or 10" @ 300.

At my range you have to qualify by putting 5 shots into a 6" diameter bulls eye with no other holes @ 300 yards before they let you shoot the longer ranges. Most people who try don't do it.

May be a simple fix, as your groups almost always are showing verticle. Bench technique, to hard a front bag, not enough float on the barrel to stock, neck tension, solid color target, shoot at a square appropriate to the subtension of the reticle, primer choice, front rest side tension.

I was getting verticle myself on my 600 yd guns that even was pissing me off at 100 yds, I thought it was technique till I read a piece written by Speedy Gonzales on the reasons for verticle.

My front bag was way to tight. I let out some black sand and I`m much better for it.

I went and found the link, man this has loads of tips.

http://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html

Thanks Tim, I'll check all those out. I did try another primer Remington, and my groups spread out.


Very good points.

I have 3 rifles I shoot long range, I expect different groups from each, mainly because I know what each has done in the past with the load I've chosen for it.
For me to be satified my 300 yard groups run from .5" to .8" and from just under 2" to just over at 500, and have shot a couple satisfying groups of just under 2" on my 660 yard target.
RR

At 300 yards, I'm satisfied with minute-of-whitetail or minute-of-pronghorn. Boiler-room hits, that is.

Su-you wanting to know what we want from field positions and or from a bench?

Thx

Dober

Interesting question from SU.

How about both Dober?