Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Barnes bullet failure??????

Can anyone explain what happened with these Barnes 225gr XLC bullets fired from a 35 WHELEN @ 100 yards? This is one of the 5/8 inch SS plates we use for handgun targets, as you can see they did not penetrate but stuck in the plate. All other bullets from the Whelen will penetrate the target even a 250gr lead. This was tried three times with the same result. Maybe the reason they were discontinued.
Neal

Base

Nose

Yea maybe they were discontinued because they don't penetrate Stainless Steel.
What was the velocity that the lead core bullets going? and How fast were the XLCs going?

oh geez...

Doesnt look like a failure to me. It expanded and that steel plate looks DRT.

Recoverd against the hide on the far (and near) side - expended all of its energy in the plate.

At least it didn't tumble, though the petals do look like they departed the shank.

Any fool can see it failed! Look at the first picture, the bullet plain as the nose on your face shed most of it's blue jacket.

Probably a boat-tail.

Looks pretty good to me. I like the frontal area!

I wouldnt consider it a failure!....I mean afterall your shooting steel.
Obviously they didnt pencil through.

Pot stirring/being silly again?

Perfectly good explanation for it I'm sure.....

I am impressed, this is a good example of what the barnes bullet is capable of.

They say it does not expand..

Nor did anyone have to track that plate. Not an ounce of bloodshot meat, either.

The bullet didn't even make it through the onside hide. Are you sure it wasn't actually a Sierra?

I'll make sure to not use one of those when I'm hunting metal plated critters.

Ah, I get it - don't take it to Africa.

Wait was this post serious?

I think it started out that way and was a very interesting observation (thanks njs) but we kind of got rolling on spoofing all of the traditional bullet threads.

First off I am a big Barnes fan.
This was just one of the more interesting things that happened one day while shooting, the XLC was traveling at about 2600 fps. The 250gr cast bullet that completely penetrated was at 2450fps. I have also put TSX, Hornady Soft Points, Partitions and about every other load for the Whelen completely through the plate, guess I like to hear the bc (bang clink). The interesting thing was that the XLC did completely penetrated a 14" diameter tree. Just looking for an explanation of the difference.
By the way the number of deer breaking into houses lately in Iowa I suspect they were stealing metals (like the copper thieves) and were up to no good , so I have to be prepared.

Neal

like to see some more pics of how much bullet is left the pics kind a look like to diff. bullets

Actually, if you question his integrity, he does have a witness. I fired the cast bullet load through the plate. I even have the same but diff pic from the azz end.

There is a very logical explanation for the "softness" of this bullet; of course shooting steel plates is folly for a bullet test, but it is interesting anyway and I wonder if Barnes or any of you noticed the XLC's being softer? This is not an indictment of the bullet but something unusual that just rears up in this unlikely scenario, worthless as it is or appears. It also shatters some silly notions about X bullets, at least this one: that they are "armor piercing".

Nate

(Spoof mode off)

I can't explain it, but I'm neither a ballistician, a metallurgist nor yet a high-energy physicist. But it does point up the rather obvious conclusion that shooting steel and meat are two very different things - requiring two very different kinds of bullet. Military bullet designers know how to penetrate steel, game bullet designers know how to penetrate animals, and the two (unsurprisingly) use very different methods.

Weight, what was the weight and SD of the bullets? I'll bet the X was lighter and almost made it through. Perhaps a heavier X would have gone through?

Note Craig Boddington's recent article on how he's seen .416's easily get to the brain of an Elephant but seen .577 Nitros fail to do so- repeatedly. Weight/velocity/material/frontal area all have a factor.

Your pretty warm Rock. Yeah, it was worded spoofy to bring out reaction, I think (grins).

Clue: How is the coating put on and bullet cores bonded to jackets?

Like I said, no condemnation of the bullet, we see little steel in the woods. In fact it may help its performance in meat and in the barrel (or even those "failures" to open we hear so much about (grins).

Planemach, the Barnes bullets were both (same powder charge an snif speeds) 225 gr., Hornadys 200, Nosler 250, and cast softnose 250.

FWIW njs feels the XLC's shoot better in his 35's than the TSX (not much though).

Nate - interesting point about the XLCs perhaps being softer. There has always seemed to be confusion about the ocmposition of the various Xs. I believe that Barnes always maintains that they are 100% copper while some, including a well-known editor, have referred to an alloy. Again, I appreciate your sharing. Best, John

HawkI - the accuracy point is interesting. I have had some days when the XLCs shot exceptionally well for me (.30-06) and other days when the same load would spray around the target far beyond even my ability to make them do so. I never chronicaled what had gone down the barrel before the XLCs, but strongly wonder if they aren't open to influence of that sort more than other bullets. Best, John

John,

Planemach is very close; Every bullet has a velocity/resistance threshold. It had been brought up on another thread about DG rounds and solids. Ironically, the same day these were fired I shot a Barnes .224 solid in said piece of steel; it also failed to penetrate, but was driven 3,500 fps with a very low S.D..

By baking the coating on I believe the XLC's ARE softer; I do this on a range top to anneal gas checks and can also be done to various metals. Bonded bullets also have heat applied, which makes them softer and more ductile, and they generally expand at lower impact speeds than their standard counterparts.. Work softening metal will do the same, to a degree.

The lack of accuracy with certain conditions with the original X's & XLC's is well known. The TSX has cured much of those issues. Gilding metal fouling and some cobby barrel conditions were culprits, even bullet balance. Barnes has made great progress to our benefit, I'm just wondering if they missed out on the softening of the alloy during the coating process. Its easy to miss with the excellent performance and penetration of their bullets.

Nate

i was just wondering what %of bullet weight was retainded have read so interest though barnes dvd i have states that there bullets are a copper alloy but they are talking about the tsx dont know about the xlc i never got the xlc to shot but have had excellent results with tsx in acurrcy and preformance in testing and on game

Heating to a certain point and then quick cooling anneals non ferrous metals, slow cooling hardens them. For copper I doubt the bake process would have been enough, for lead quite possibly. The opposite is true for ferrous metals. Working a piece of metal hardens it non ferrous or ferrous, it breaks because it gets brittle.

The copper also has a higher coefficient of friction than guilding metal or lead. Which in combo with weight, frontal area and speed could be behind the catch. I do know I have yet to catch one in any animal launched from a .257 Roberts, an 8x57 or a .270 WSM 100 grain, 140 or 180.

I will try to remember to bring a punch and hammer out to the range next time and retrieve the bullets. Too hot last few weeks to shoot but this weekend looks like low 80's so hope to get out. I'll post some pics-- maybe add a little to the answer.

Neal

Lead strength can fluctuate with temperatures, especially alloyed and treated lead. Lead alloys can also be worked (nose bumping) and softened; not for certain about pure copper.

Gas checks can be annealed on a range top when heated until glowing; I do not know the temps involved with the XLC's. I do know that the same weight, same speed TSX's zinged not only through one, but two of the plates, as does just about every jacketed bullet in the 35 Whelen.

My understanding of annealing is a slow cooling down cycle from high temp., at least that's how it works for lead alloys. Quick cooling as in water dropping is a hardening method.

This was a head scratcher for sure; any explanation or anectdote is a good one.

If the Barnes showed that kind of frontal area all the time in game, I'd use them...

If the Barnes showed that kind of frontal area all the time in game, I'd use them...

They do

Really? Jordan, I have not seen it too often....that sucker is peeled back to the heel almost. I would bet it takes a lot of resistance to get them to that shape very often...

Tried to knock the bullets out of the SS but the hammer I had wasn't big enough to drive them out(didn't budge them). I'll try again next time I'm at the range.

Neal

Since I have seen,on ocassions, the earlier Barnes bullets penetrate and not expand, bend double, break in half, and a couple of other things, perhaps this new bullet is the best yet..I think the BX's have been too hard over the years...When they worked they were absolutly excellent, and when they failed they failed miserably...Looks like that may have been corrected, time will tell.

Different view





another view



The first bullet is a 225 grain 338 caliber TSX recovered from a 22 to 2400 pound Longhorn and that 225 TSX outpentrated a 300 TBBC from a 375 H&H. The TBBC was under the hide on the offside and the 225 penetrated more on an angle and was found poking through the hide on the offside


The second bullet was recovered from a Whitetail Buck and is a 180 grain 30 cal. The shot was from 300 yards

All bullets always do what we want them to.....until the first time they don't. Even a True Believer who walks in the Light of the Barnes X can experience "The Shadow." Where there's light, there's also shadow.