Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers '94 AE 356

This has to be one of the nicest post '64 big bore winny's I have seen. The tarrif is pretty steep but looking is free!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/c...er/1098443_win_mit.jsp?hierarchyId=11931

Very nice. Looks like it's pre-lawyer safety, too.

Scott

I expect the wood on that one would cost more to replace than the entire cost of the gun. She sure looks like a gem.


Dave

I have one just like it, but that one does have better wood. Price on that one seems a little ridiculous, but to each their own. Mine is a favorite and a keeper. Finding 356 brass is fun also.

I have one w/stupid safety. Shoots good. Here is the brass
http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=278|282|285|379
They have plenty.

I have one in my locker that looks nearly as good... right out of the box! Belongs to my oldest son and I handload it for him.

It's about 15 yrs old, and during most of that time he was in Africa and I kept the gun for him. He's shot a 300 lb buck, a smallish black bear and some chucks with it. It's also gone moose hunting, but no moose showed up! It's a good round for anything up to moose at 200 yds and ideal for deer and black bear.

His shows little use as it's seen little use. But it's in my locker when he gets a chance to use it.

Thanks Marc. Someone put me on to them a couple of weeks ago. Bought 100pcs and some 257 Rbts brass as well. Anyone running scopes on your 356? If so, what have you found that works best for you?

I had a 1.5-4 Bushnell on my 356 for years. It was great for running shots and low light shooting. I took it off and put it on my 358 and put a Williams peep on the .356.

Midway usually has a supply of 356 brass too, but not always. I bought 500 several years ago so don't look as much for them anymore.

Vari XII in 2x7 but I just moved it to a new 338. I'm thinking Weaver V3 (1-3 power) might be good.

Midway has brass for it now at $273 per 500

Just checked out Wideners. They are a lot cheaper than Midway.

Their shipping is also cheaper but I'm just right down the road.

I just sold my .356, after owning it since 1994. I used it to bag a moose, elk, and a couple of deer, but it didn't have any more mysteries for me so I sold it and went on to other rifles. Killed one of my closest deer with it - 5 yds, and one of the farthest moose - 250 yards. They are a versatile bush gun. Much better all-around choice than the 45-70 that I'm playing with now.

Anyone use a ghost ring on their rifle? I'm considering the XS ghost ring instead of a scope for 356.

I had one on a Trapper 44 and liked it. The Williams is practically the same thing once you remove the small peep. Used a ghost ring on the M16 in the military. Nice and quick for short range shots.

Scope on Win. 356...have 3X9 Burris with a Lighted dot in center of recticle I can turn off and on....never shot anything with the light feature turned on though... Thought it was a good idea for tree stand hunting at first and last light.Love the gun, 200 gr. Rem corelocks loaded to 2330fps. Scope maybe alittle large on a lever gun this size but I'm so used to this style of scope I feel right at home (just like my scopes on backup bolt gun)....afish4570

I have a Marlin 336 ER in .356 Win with a Lyman receiver peep sight. I just take out the screw in peep and use the sight as a ghost ring. Works fine.

I have a Winchester pre lawyer safety in 356w and it has a William apperature with the center removed. Works well.

JPK

[Anyone use a ghost ring on their rifle?] - I used to.

[I'm considering the XS ghost ring instead of a scope for 356.] -

I switched from a peep to a low-powered variable scope on my .356 BB94, for two reasons:
To better take advantage of the cartridge's long range capabilities, and -
To see better/longer during the twilight shooting hours when hunting time is lost during the use of a peep due to it not transmitting enough usable light - even a ghost ring.

.

Here are two pictures of a french 356AE in action. I use that rifle sometime, in driven hunt. Easy to carry, fast and powerful it has accounted for some wild boars and that spike red deer.
Handload is Speer 220grs with VN135. I had chance to find 10 boxes of Winchester ammo at bargain price. Shot hundred to have cases keep the other 100 in case of...
As Al Miller wrote years ago my 356 shoot the 358 singly loaded or i can use 358 cases without any problems handloaded with FP bullets.
The 356 is beside a Winchester Vulkan semi auto rifle often used in driven hunt.

Dom

How hard is it to own those rifles in France? Never really heard anything about gun ownership in France, was just curious.

To Hawk driver,

Not so difficult, for hunting shotguns or rifles that are not chambered in military standard calibers (5,56; 7,62, 30-06, 8x57, 303 etc) you just need to have your valid hunting licence or your valid federal shooting licence. Rifles and semi auto shotguns are registered. But you don't have to wait to buy one. The documents are send by the gunsmith to the police department...
For hand guns and military calibers firearms need to practice in club minimum for one year then apply for authorisation you can have 12 to 16 of this firearms depends if you're competitor or not. You must practice minimum 4 times a year and reapply for every three years. You can't hunt with handguns. all the black powders (muzzle loaders are free as are all the six shooters muzzle loaders except the Ruger because it's not a copy of and original old model. Sound moderators are free (can't use to hunt forbidden, handloadind is free. You can own as many hunting rifles you want if you have the money to do such thing. It better to have gun safe. Gun safes are mandatory if you have Handguns and military firearms.
Were are more than a million hunters and 200000 shooters we even have an SASS chapter in France as in Italy, Germany...
Years ago when i was younger i used to have AR15, Mini14, Steyr AUG, M14 and Sig542/540. But i was tired of such guns and of the boring reapplying so i sold the whole bunch and came back to levers and single shot (Sharps and 1885)and some Winch70s....
Hope have lighted you a little bit
Regards
Dom
Shooting an original 95, always a great plesure...

Good to hear that you can own guns and shoot in France! Never really hear much about gun ownership in France and assumed, incorrectly, that it was a very difficult thing to do.

Yes we can own shotguns, rifles and handguns (must be registered these ones) and we also hunt 'sometime a lot). If you have good contacts, friends or money or both three, you even can hunt in France from april to february playing on the different opening dates and regions. And traveling Europe with firearms is no more a problem (except as always England) if you have your firearms europass. Sort of european passport for firearms, hunting or shooting....I hunted Germany, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Hungary, Sweden, Finland, Lithuania and Italy for the last five years without any problems.
Dom

I had a 356 winchester rifle justlike that back in 2002. It shot great with the factory 200gr bullets and i got a medium doe with it and very little blood shot meat but instant smackdown. You can make cases for it by running 308 brass into the 356/358 sizing die, just be sure to lubricate the inside of the case mouth.
You can do the same with the 307 and just use 308 brass to reload for it. Extractor seems to work fine. Nonneman rechambered a Marlin 30-30 for me to 307 and it shot great but would stick cases with factory loads. I think that is why Marlin came out with the 308 Marlin Express and never released the Marlin 307 out. The Marlin 308ME shot great was extremely accurate. Now I have a Marlin 338ME and it shoots fantastic and is my new long range rifle. That along with my 336T 30-30, 1894P .44, 1894c .357, are going hunting this fall

Marseille--how do you like that Winchester automatic?
I was thinking of getting one of those but just couldnt get over the glossy reciever and I'd have to put camo tape on it or spray paint it with bow flage.
Its the same action as the Browning, so I'll probably try to find one of those discounted somewhere.

PS Marseille--what kind of goat is that you shot? Just kidding!!


Happy trails!!!

Hi Hunter5567,

The Winchester SRX is a good rifle, action is same as the Short trac or other Browning but it has been very well regulated wor the 270WSM. The berrel is a bit longer, not bad for our ears, even 2cm can make difference.
That goat is a young red deer spike but the picture was taken by a very bad photograph. The 356 in really an underated caliber. As Some US writers say it has been killed in your country by the "brush caliber appelation" at an age when every one was speaking of long range hunting...Too bad for Winchester! works well for me.

Marseille your 356 is just like mine but mine wears a 1x3x20 Weaver scope. My company has French equipment and one of the installers went nuts buying bullet casting stuff when he was here. There are some very dedicated hunters/shooters in France!

Now mine wear a 1-4x20 Leupold heavy duplex on Leupold Qrw, depends where i hunt i also have an Aimpoint Micro H1 mounted on the front bridge.
Nice rifle easy to carry during the beat, powerful, precise enought, like it!

Can anyone tell me what bases are the most recommended for a 94AE in .356W?

Rear is drilled/tapped left and right, the front is drilled/tapped normally, concentric with the bore.

Hello. if anyone is interested i have (4) full boxs of factory Winchester brass i would be willing to sell for any reasonable offer. I also have (2) boxs of loaded ammo, one is the rear 250 gr. and the other is 200 gr. I used both for testing my rifle and shot half a box of each so i guess you can say i have one full box but mixed. I am also thinking of selling the rifle being i do not even use it anymore like most of my rifles do to age and health. In any event all and any interested persons are welcome to inquire. You can e-mail me or PM or call me. first to say i will buy it will take preference on all items mentioned. Thanks for your time, Rick Sr. (203)996-8821 > CT. est. time

E-mail > Firemen281retsbcglobal.net

P.S. .356 WINCHESTER AND .308 ARE NOT THE SAME CASE AS WELL AS .358 WINCHESTER ALTHOUGH THE .358 IS NOTHING MORE THAN A .308 CASE NECKED UP TO .35 CALIBER THE .356 WIN. IS A DIFFERENT ROUND ALL TOGETHER AND HAS A RIM SOMEWHAT LIKE A 30-30. CHECK OUT THE DATA AND CASE DIMENSIONS IN A RELOADING MANUAL AND YOU WILL SEE THE DIFFERENCE. ******(ALSO NOTE)******* THE .307 WIN. CASE & .356 WIN. CASE WERE DESIGNED FOR LOWER PRESSURE LOADS SO THEY CAN BE USED IN THE LEVER RIFLES SUCH AS THE MARLIN & WINCHESTER BIG BORE 94'S. NEVER USE .308 0R .358 WIN. LOADING DATA FOR THE .356 OR .307 OR YOU COULD BLOW UP A GOOD RIFLE.

It is important for us to remember the 307 and 356 Winchester are both rated for 52,000 CUP the same as the 308 and 358 Winchester. Certainly the Winchester Big Bore rifles have no trouble operating at these pressure levels over the long term. Except for the rim the case dimensions are the same.
The difference in loading data is due to the reduced COAL of the 307 and 356 Winchester which reduces the available case capacity.

I am sure as new powders become available we will see the 307 & 356 get even better. I was fortunate a few months ago and got a good buy on 3 boxes of 356. Long live the lever rifles.
Cheers NC

I agree. In the 307 Winchester Hodgdon Varget, Alliant Reloder 15 and Accurate Arms 2520 easily up the performance levels. The interesting thing will be the replacement of the wonderful Speer 130-, 150- and 170-grain Hot Core bullets. Let�s hope the new Speer bullets have the same performance on game at 307 Winchester velocities. The 130-grain flat nose bullet is a very accurate bullet in tubular magazine lever-action rifles. The new bullets have big shoes to fill.

For the 356 Winchester Hodgdon Varget, Alliant Reloder 15 and Reloder 10X are great powders. With the 200-grain bullets for use on pigs and light bodied deer it is still hard to beat Hodgdon 4198, although Reloder 10X is proving to be just a bit more accurate in our rifles.

For the heavier cast bullets it is still hard to beat Hodgdon or IMR 4895 or 4198. Hodgdon 322 is in the running for accuracy and power but it leaves some hard unburnt kernels in the chamber which dimples the next case. Just an odd thing.

If memory serves me I used Weavers.

Weavers...

PERHAPS YOU NEED MORE INFORMATIVE INFO. IF YOU WERE TO USE .308 WINCHESTER DATA IN .307 WIN. OR .358 WIN DATA IN THE .356 WIN CALIBER YOU MIGHT BE IN FOR A NASTY SURPRISE

Based on this rule, find your situation below.
__

I DON'T RELOAD AND USE ONLY MILSURP AMMUNITION.

You shouldn't have any problems.

I DON'T RELOAD BUT WANT TO USE COMMERCIAL AMMUNITION.

There is a potential problem with brass integrity. Commercial cases are NOT as thick as their military cousins. There is less brass, so if you use them in an original, unmeasured military chamber, there may not be sufficient material to stretch and fill the chamber without rupturing. That's bad!!

I RELOAD.

You know that commercial brass is thinner. An easy way to see this is to weigh a fired case of each type. You'll see that the commercial case is lighter. There may not be enough brass left - after lengthening - for any decent case life. You will only aggravate the situation by full length resizing (it weakens the case by overworking the brass), loading at or near maximum or both.
__

If you own a milsurp bolt gun like an Ishapore 2A or 2A1, consider neck sizing the brass for better case life, fit and accuracy.

SOME FINAL THOUGHTS

Military ammunition is loaded to maximum average pressure 50,000 CUP (approximately 58,000 PSI using the modern piezo transducer method of measurement). This standard is used to ensure better consistency round to round. It is proofed at 67,000PSI. The ammunition can then be used in a wide variety of firearms with no ill effects.

Look for the NATO design mark.



NATO mark found on the outside of ammunition containers and the bottom of each case rim.


Commercial ammunition has a SAAMI/ANSI maximum pressure of 62,000PSI. While not every manufacturer may load it to this level, this is the industry established maximum. This is also measured using the piezo transducer method. The proof cartridge pressure is 83,000 to 89,000 PSI. Note the differences between the military test and operational standard vs the commercial one.

The worst case scenario for shooters of 7.62 NATO rifles is as follows: Using a commercially made, maximum pressure cartridge with long headspace, fired from a weak action (ex. converted 93/95 Mausers).

The weaker action is a possible final piece of the 308 vs 7.62 NATO puzzle.

Perhaps no single element will cause your rifle to fail. Maybe you've used your rifle for a while with no ill effects. Usually a rifle will take some abuse before failing. Like a lot of things in life, Murphy's Law - If something can go wrong, it will - could very well catch up with you.

Personally, I don't like the odds.

I am not certain what we are now discussing but I�ll try once more. No one, including me, advocated using 308 Winchester load data in the 307 Winchester. Your original post suggested the 307 and 356 Winchester cases were designed for lower operating pressure than those listed for the 308 and 358 Winchester cartridges, this is not the case.
The American Standard Institute publishes a pamphlet titled: �Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers.�

The Maximum average mean pressure is listed as 52,000 CUP for both the 307 and 308 Winchester cartridges loaded with a 150-grain bullet. The maximum probable sample is listed as 55,300 CUP for both cartridges.

I sometimes have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly. When I wrote this:
�The difference in loading data is due to the reduced COAL of the 307 and 356 Winchester which reduces the available case capacity.�

I intended to convey the thought that both the 307 and 356 Winchester cartridges operate within the same operating limitation � pressure wise � as the 308 and 358 Winchester cartridges. The differences in load data between the 307 and 308 Winchester cartridges is due to the reduced COAL which due to the bullet being seated deeper, reduces the gross case capacity. I have compared the water capacity of both cases on several occasions and there is little real difference in total water capacity between the two commercial cartridges � 307 and 308 Winchester.

Why would anyone shoot military surplus 7.62 ammunition in a 307 Winchester rifle and how did this enter into this conversation?

(1.)I think you are completely misunderstanding me and the point i am trying to make. You stated in an earlier post,***(It is important for us to remember the 307 and 356 Winchester are both rated for 52,000 CUP the same as the 308 and 358 Winchester.)***

(2.)Note.(CUP),COPPER UNITS OF PRESSURE vs (PSI,POUNDS PER Sq INCH).They are two entirely different measures of force being exerted within a case/Chamber when fired being that the 7.62x51 Nato Military round is designed around working pressure's of 52,000 cup & 50,000 - 53,000 Psi Max working pressure opposed to the .308 Win.caliber factory loading's such as Win., Rem., & Fed as well are rated at 52,000 cup's and as high as 62,000 Psi which is way higher plus the fact that this case differs from the military 7.62x51 Nato and using the commercial ammo in a firearm designed for the Nato Chamber can have some Drastic end results. The bottom line is the commercial brass is thinner and has a different demision as well and allows for the higher pressure where as the Nato round is or was not designed being of different demension and Thicker case walls & web area so there is no way for anyone to attain the same velocity/speed and energy of either a .308 Winchester or a .358 when using the .356 Win.& .307 Win. calibers respectively. Also note that the .358 Winchester case is nothing more than a .308 Win.necked up to .35 caliber.



(3.)The .308/7.62 is the exact reverse of the .223/5.56 situation. The 7.62 case is heavier and thicker than the civilian case, but it is loaded to a lower pressure than SAAMI spec .308. The 7.62 NATO is 50,000 CUP PSI and the SAAMI .308 is 62,000 PSI.

What this means is that you can shoot good quality milsurp 7.62 NATO ammo in a commercial (read civilian) .308 Winchester rifle all day long.

(4.)You should not shoot full power .308 Winchester ammo in 7.62 NATO milsurp rifles. The 7.62 chamber is longer than SAAMI .308, the commercial brass is thinner and the commercial ammo is loaded to much higher pressure than 7.62 ammo.

(5.)Finally,
The 7.62 case is heavier and thicker than the civilian case, but it is loaded to a lower pressure than SAAMI spec .308. The 7.62 NATO is 50,000 CUP and the SAAMI .308 is 62,000.

What this means is that you can shoot good quality milsurp 7.62 NATO ammo in a commercial (read civilian) .308 Winchester rifle all day long.

You should not shoot full power .308 Winchester ammo in 7.62 NATO milsurp rifles. The 7.62 chamber is longer than SAAMI .308, the commercial brass is thinner and the commercial ammo is loaded to much higher pressure than 7.62 ammo.

First of all,52,000 CUP is not 52,000 PSI but more like 60,930 PSI.The Winchester Big Bore has been tested to destruction at 62-65,000 PSI in as little as 40 rounds.Not once,but twice with Freedom Arms,at the request of Winchester, the second tester for the 454 Casull.

The problems with Winchester and Marlin is there lack of repeadiness in there testing.Winchester actually thought the Big Bore version was tough enough to handle the 454 Casull..NOT!!!!

They just ought to spend the bucks and redesign an action to take these rounds with a Safety factor that is normal without pushing the button like Bighorn armory did with the 500 Smith and Wesson in a leveraction with there own design took from the '92 and '86 Winchesters and as Rossi did with there 454 Casull based on the Winchester '92 action.

Jayco

AMEN.

I am not confusing PSI Vs CUP. I quoted the SAAMI pressure specifications for the 307 and 308 Winchester cartridges in CUP because 307 Winchester pressure limitations were not established in PSI. The Winchester Big Bore rifle is strong enough to handle the 307 Winchester cartridge loaded to its working pressure of 52,000 CUP for the long term. Certainly my particular example has given excellent service for 20+ years using full power loads.
The model 94 is not capable of withstanding the pressure of the 454 but this does not make it a poor rifle. The action of the Model 94 is longer than necessary for the short pistol cartridges and there is no point in trying to make the long action feed these short cartridges.
Even at short range the 454 is not superior to the 307 or 356 cartridges for any hunting use.

I am well aware of the 94 Big Bore and it's added strength being the receiver was redesigned for the higher pressure load but what i am getting at is Marlin did not do anything to strengthen it's receiver. They just used there old stand by 336 and barreled it up for the two new cartridges along with the.375 Winchester. It gave them the same problems that they are now having with there newest entry into redesigning the wheel as the pulverable saying goes. Seems they did not learn to much from the first go around. Now they are trying it again in there so called .308 Marlin & the newer .338 Marlin made by Hornady ammo. My point is simple, they the manufacturer's should stop trying to make a lever gun into a bolt gun unless you build it that way like browning did with there proven BLR Model. The locking system/bolt on a 336 is just not strong enough to endure the repeated hammering from the higher pressure loads. That's why when they produced the .307 & .356 they were not loaded to there fullest potential being the case make take the higher pressure but the rifle would soon develop problems exception noted, the Big bore 94 with the beefed up action. like i said way back when, if you want .308 ballistics then buy one and the same goes for the .356 Win. vs the original .358 Winchester. You can put a high performance engine in a Volkswagen but in the end run you still are driving a VW. I rest my case.

As you say, Marlin did not release the 336 ER to the public chambered for the 307 Winchester cartridge. The Marlin 336 action will not handle the same pressure as the Winchester Model 94 Big Bore with the margin of safety required by those responsible for the safety of the buying public. This does not take anything away from the Marlin rifle, it is just a fact.
There is nothing wrong with the 308 Marlin Express cartridge or its rifle that I can see. My 308MX rifle delivers a bit better performance than my 30-30AI and it delivers this performance at lower pressure. I agree the 308 Marlin Express is not a 307 Winchester, but the Winchester rifle is gone and the 307 Winchester is obsolete. The 308 Marlin Express and its rifles are in production now. If you want this level of performance in a tubular magazine lever action rifle the 308ME is the way to go.
I agree the factory loads for the 307 and 356 Winchester cartridges were reduced in performance by Winchester a few years after they introduced the cartridges. Apparently partly due to the way non-canister powder is ordered by the factories. Certainly my Winchester Big Bore rifles chambered for the 307 and 356 Winchester cartridges, after more than 25 years of load testing and shooting exhibit no signs of distress.
Your rifle and caliber recommendation suggests a �one size fits all� plan which was voiced in the gun press around 1900 in the pages of Outing, Outers, Field and Stream, Fur Fish and Game and several other magazines. The big bore Vs small bore, smokeless powder Vs black powder and lead Vs jacketed bullets were hot topics.
There is no need to disparage a fine cartridge or rifle simply because we don�t like it or another manufacturer chambered the cartridge in his rifle which turned out to be: �not up to the task.�

Incidentally, if you have not examined the new Marlin 308MX rifle and its 308 Marlin Express cartridge closely you are missing a very interesting combination. Marlin has fitted the locking bolt to the sliding bolt very carefully and has taken pains to attach the magazine tube to the barrel in such a way as to not bind the barrel. The fore end has nylon rub strips to ensure the barrel and magazine tube does not interfere with the barrel as it heats. You will be hard pressed to handload ammunition with the accuracy potential of the Hornady factory loaded 308 Marlin Express ammunition. I believe this calls for celebration rather than a suggestion we have pushed technology too far.

To really muddy the waters and add to the contention. The Hornady .308FTX ammo shoots sub-moa from my .307Win.

I do have a Marlin 336ER in 356Winchester in France together with one 94. I load for both the same, using Speer 13teen manual loading datas with VN133 and 135 powders or french spherical SP9/7 powders, flat point 180 and 220grs bullets without pressure problems or stress signs. It's powerful enought for all big game i hunt from 0 to 200meters if bullet is placed where it must be. Will try to get 35 caliber Lever Evolution already ordered to french distributor) and stay with 200grs, think will shoot a little bit flatter and velocity will be right between 180 and 220 bullets one.
If i need more speed and flatter shooting cartridge i pick a bolt rifle like my 338Fed Tikka and it's enough.

Had a love affair with the 356 win for many years, just moved on to the 338fed, kimber 84M. Found the 250PP wouldn't open up on deer, did fine on moose/bear. The hawk 250 was actually .359 instead of .358 and expanded so much in almost never exited resulting in no blood trail, had to drop my load 15 grains to be able to extract the case. The 220 speer and 250 kodiak performed perfectly, never able to recover one, but always had huge exit wound, both very accurate. Found the 200gr PP to not be as accurate and since hunt in area's that have brown bear want more buttlet, did shoot a few deer with it and performed very well. Still have a 356 trapper I had built for a bear defense rifle when hiking.