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Does anybody have any experience with pointing labs? I have a friend who bought one and it is great in his opinion. I was just wondering if anyone else can attest to their use. I guess I really want to know can they really do it all, upland, waterfowl the whole shebang, and do they keep their mild mannered lab qualities while doing it? I have had a reular old Black lab for years now and love him to death, I would hate to see something ruin that great temperment.
Mark
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I currently have a pointing lab whose going on 7. She is my first lab (had Gordons before). Yes, she can do it all and still maintain her great "lab personality" and transitions from the couch to the field with ease.
She won't hold point forever, like other breeds, but she'll definitely lock up and let you know they're close. Once I start approaching, she usually reverts to her flushing instincts. She gets regular duty in the marsh as well.
When Rox is ready to hang it up, I'll get another.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Have been struggling big time with getting a pointing lab... and might still. Almost got one last year, but both parents are over 80# and I want a smallish dog.
Seems they would be the slickest of all choices... A cold weather dog that points...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Kona's grandsire was Sir Hershey, out of Black Forest Kennels in Colorado. Sir Hershey was the first Lab, IIRC, to win a pointing championship.
Kona has been a grand upland and waterfowl dog, and the most tenacious retriever I have ever hunted around. And a marvelous companion.
The Black Forest dogs tend to run in the 70# range, +/-. Kona was 65-68 in her prime; she's running around 60'ish in her dotage. They have a nice website you can google up.
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I hunt with a half dozen partners that all have pointing labs out of some great bloodlines in Seward.....we all prefer the females and I'd guess weight at 45-50 pounds.....very affectionate dogs.....they make sure to raise the pups in a household with kids so they are socialized. Excellant hunters and some have done very well in competition.
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Yep. She wouldn't hold a point like a German shorthair, but she definitely pointed. Had I done a better job of training her she would have been a more staunch pointer, but that was my lack, not hers.
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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I bought my first lab at age 15 and was surprised when he showed pointer instincts. He pointed pretty well but I had no clue on training dogs so he pointed and held only as long as the bird stayed put and would flush it when he thought I was ready. By age two he was so nearsighted he couldn't tell people apart at 15 feet. He compensated by using his nose and was the most persistent retriever I've ever had.
Several labs since have shown minimal pointing instincts but there's a one year old female in the house that is showing great desire on birds and a pretty strong inclination to point. We'll see how she develops. Ward
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I have a 11 month male chocolate from pointing lines and he has been extremely easy to work with. His point is more like a long pause but it gives me enough time to get ready before he charges in. I duck hunt every chance I get so I really haven't worked with him much on upland game.
He's an outside dog but when I do bring him in the house he's as calm as can be. Steady in the blind and loves the birds.
We still have more work to do before next season.
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pointing labs are one of the breeds im looking at, there is a kennel that works with them on the other side of the state that im going to visit in 2 months and see the parent dogs and see if they are what i want.....given my laid back hunting style and the fact i want a companion dog as much as a hunting dog, pointing labs seem like they might be a good fit.......
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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After you go and visit, would you mind PM'ing me, or posting, what you find out? Kona is coming up on 14, and at some point I'm going to need another dog. I want another chocolate Lab, preferably out of pointing Lab stock, and I spend a lot of time in Montana. All that makes me very interested in your findings.
Thanks,
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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will do, i wont be over that way till the end of April(was thinking it was the March trip in the first post) so dont be to impatient  ive also never had nor trained a bird dog, main thing im looking at is temperament of the adults and their size, and from there ill go on to talk to ppl that have purchased pups from them.....trying to avoid getting a dumb moose of a lab like my sis has though im confident hers isnt from any hunting lines....
Last edited by rattler; 02/02/09.
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I'm in no hurry, as I really don't want to get a pup until after Kona is gone. Mostly I'm looking for your impression of the kennel, the owners, and their dogs.
Kona is the only bird dog I ever trained. I didn't really teach her to hunt birds -- I only trained her to hunt birds with me.
I think getting a dog from proven hunting lines is crucial. I think they tend to be smaller, faster, smarter, more biddable and much more birdy. As someone else noted about their dog, Kona went from lapdog to stone hunter in no more time than it took to pick up a shotgun and go out the door. And reverted to type as soon as we went back inside.
I appreciate any insights you can give me on this kennel, because it will be easy for me to visit when I come back deer and bird hunting in October.
Thanks much,
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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sounds good, thats pretty much what the side trip to the kennel is going to be for, getting overall impressions of the ppl, kennel and the dogs...
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I have a pointing lab from Tiger Mtn. He will be five this spring and has been an incredible dog. I've hunted dove, quail, grouse, chukar, hun,pheasants, ducks, and geese. He's even been with me on deer and elk hunts. During the off season, he is pretty good at finding antlers. I couldn't ask for a better hunting dog and companion. He will point, but not every time (lack of training on my part). If you decide on a pointing lab, go with one of the top breeders...Tiger Mtn or Black Forest. You will be glad you did. ![[Linked Image]](http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/IDuplander/nov07003.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/IDuplander/chukarhunt06_edit-1.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/IDuplander/oct07092.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/IDuplander/oct07095.jpg)
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lochsa,
That is one beautiful beast!!!
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That is a good looking lab, of course once you go black you will never go back as they say.  Love my boy Jake, even at 11 he is still pretty eager to get out and play. I have spoke with Tiger Mtn and they have a pretty good web-site. They also offer finished dogs as well for those of us who have little time for hands on training or do not care to spend all that money just to screw up the poor dog once it gets to you. The lab I spoke of that my friend has came from Black Forest. I am really surprised at the feedback on this subject, I think I may be convinced. Mark
What part of "Constitutionally !!LIMITED!!" don't you understand?
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I also have a Tiger Mountain dog, nearly 6 now, and she pointed at a very early age. I had John Greer start her, and picked her up at 4 months old. He used pigeons to train her, and she locks up like a rock whenever one lands in the yard. She also points porcupines, skunks, and anything else she doesn't recognize. On game birds, she is a normal lab, with no pointing whatsoever. John offered to "firm up" her point if I'd bring her back to Ellensburg and pay for the birds to train her, but the 2,000 mile round-trip from Wyoming wasn't worth it to me. She has excellent personality, is laid back just like I asked, an excellent house dog and traveler, an excellent retriever with an above-average nose, and hunts all upland game birds. I do not hunt waterfowl any more, but she has retrieved several pheasants from water, and would retrieve every fish I caught if I let her. She may be best hunting Gambel's quail, of all things, as long as her feet hold out.
The point, no pun intended, is some pointing labs may point early, then lose it, some don't point early, then develop it, and some point their whole lives. Mine has turned out to be an occasional pointing lab.
Living proof that expressing your opinion is not a good career advancement strategy.
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I had a Chocolate female that just pointed as instinct. She would hold her point on Pheasants but with a small covey of Quail under her feet she could not contain herself...she would bust them up to be shot.
She was not a steller hunt test dog but did get a AKC master hunter title on her... but a great field dog.
Doc
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Here is my pup in action. Neither of her parents point and am not aware that any of her litter mates do either but my pup started doing this at the end of her first pheasant hunting season when she was 10 months old. She turns 3 today and continues to point which is something that thrills me to death. Some say a lab shouldn't do this but I am happy as all get out with it especially given I have two young hunters in the family and this gives them a chance to get ready before the action starts. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.goodhunting.com/goodhunters/images/4497.JPG)
Last edited by BwanaND; 02/06/09.
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Here is my pup in action. Neither of her parents point and am not aware that any of her litter mates do either but my pup started doing this at the end of her first pheasant hunting season when she was 10 months old. She turns 3 today and continues to point which is something that thrills me to death. Some say a lab shouldn't do this but I am happy as all get out with it especially given I have two young hunters in the family and this gives them a chance to get ready before the action starts. Wow, what a beauty, great looking labe. MCS
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Labs are wonderful dogs - the best retrievers available, and some are good pointers too, but I wonder about the success you will have buying a dog that has been developed for pointing for only a few generations. The European versatile breeds have been bred to do what you describe for over 200 years, and there are many breeds and blood lines to choose from that have been selectively bred to point, retrieve, track and live with family members. Both NAVHDA and the Versatile Hunting Dog federations run standardized tests that allow hunters to evaluate blood lines. I think if you have your heart set on a pointing lab, buy one, but if you want to ensure a truly versatile hunting dog, look into the versatile breeds, German Wirehair pointer, Viszla, Large Munsterlander, Griffon, Pudelpointer, among others.
Last edited by castnblast; 02/10/09. Reason: spelling
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Those are all nice dogs...but they're not Labs... . Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Campfire Kahuna
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And few dogs handle cold water the way a lab does...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Someone said Black forest is in Colorado. The one I found on the net is in Texas. Rattler I am interested in the breeder you found in MT. I am located in Cody, WY and thinking about getting a pointing lab.
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Here is the website for the Black Forest Kennel in Colorado. The "Sir Hershey of Surrey" that is mentioned on it was my dog Kona's grandsire, though I never dealt with them directly. http://www.bearpointkennel.com/Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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this is the kennel ill be visiting in April....maybe in March, talking bout running to Florence in March during the Fairmont trip but it will be a show up Sunday at our friends leave early Monday type of thing...... http://www.valleygatelabradors.com/
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Boy rattler, you weren't kidding the other side of the state. I didn't think you were thinking missoula. I was hoping closer to the east side of the west half not the west side of the west half. I will look into to it.
Thanks
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lol before gas went up and i bought i house i used to drive my wife nuts cause i would rather drive to Great Falls and visit my sister than pick up the phone to talk to her.....we would get up at 6 or so take off, hit Great Falls at 10:30-11, have lunch with my sister maybe do a lil shopping and than drive home......i hate talking on a phone when i say the other side of the state i mean Helena/Butte and west cause i dont like doing it as a day trip....
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Partagas, Trieven-Sungold in Lovell produces pointing Labs. Their male was the original breeding for Tiger Mountain's female, Jackie.
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Really, that is great. I will check them out. That is only 45 min away. Thanks.
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Looks like they produced dogs with both tiger mountain and black forest. Here is a quote off there website: "If you are checking out pointing Labs, there are quite a few good kennels out there. Check their pedigrees, nearly ALL go back to Trieven blood. Tiger Mountain�s program includes quite a bit of TWIST blood. If you go to their website, the dogs LUKE and WHITEFOOT are direct offspring of Twist, and a strong influence in their bloodline. Black Forest, another excellent kennel, has GMPR GUMBO OF BLACK FOREST and GMPR CAJUN OF BLACK FOREST, both bred by Trieven Kennels. TWIST & SHOUT was a strong influence in many pointing Lab programs, as are AFC TRIEVEN CLASSICAL JAZZ MH (sire of FC/AFC JAZZTIME) and FC/AFC TRIEVEN THUNDERHEAD." http://trieven.trieven-sungold.com/index.html
Last edited by Partagas; 02/12/09. Reason: add link
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www.lankaslabs.comLost my Brittany on Christmas Eve, maybe Chinese dog food. He was a good partner even though he couldn't see or hear but sure could smell at 13 and 1/2. With 4 kids we started the search for an everything dog and ran into pointing labs. We got a beautiful silver lab that seems to be as smart as any dog I have met with a wonderful dispostition. Have worked with him but haven't hunted him yet. I hope to take him to a local game farm soon for a little field trial. However he doesn't lock up like Brit did while he is working or playing. Anyway he feels all the voids and if even decent in the field he will be filling at least 3 dog duties for our family.
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Labs are wonderful dogs - the best retrievers available, and some are good pointers too, but I wonder about the success you will have buying a dog that has been developed for pointing for only a few generations. The European versatile breeds have been bred to do what you describe for over 200 years, and there are many breeds and blood lines to choose from that have been selectively bred to point, retrieve, track and live with family members. Both NAVHDA and the Versatile Hunting Dog federations run standardized tests that allow hunters to evaluate blood lines. I think if you have your heart set on a pointing lab, buy one, but if you want to ensure a truly versatile hunting dog, look into the versatile breeds, German Wirehair pointer, Viszla, Large Munsterlander, Griffon, Pudelpointer, among others. yah know......you have been on this forum long enough that yah should know better than to ask a question like that.....kinda like asking why someone is going to dump a bunch of money into a military mauser to make a custom rifle when its a hell of alot cheaper just to buy a CZ......dammit man logic doesnt factor in to the equation at all
Last edited by rattler; 02/12/09.
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I have regular labs, at times they have shown a pointing tendency but what I have found is that they wag their tails differently when they are birdy. They actutally recognize the wag in each other and will close ranks to find the bird. All this talk of smart labs has me confused though.
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My dog's mother was Trieven Classical Lass II, so Tiger Mountain has gone back there for breeding in the past few years.
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I grew up in the shadows of Tiger Mt and went to school in Ellensburg. My uncle has a lab from Tiger Mt. Its a great dog. However, I'm not convinced that pointing labs are better then actual pointing breeds. If you want a pointing dog, get a Brit, GSP, etc. IMO they have better noses then labs (don't bash me, just my observation). However, if you want a dog tha can do everything, and point, then you simply can't beat a lab. I brefer different breeds simply because I don't need a dog that will retrieve ducks, geese, etc. I only hunt upland birds. BUT, my wife loves labs, and I'm guessing we will eventually have a lab from Tiger Mt. Hell, I might have to start duck and goose hunting...
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I am thinking about a Tiger Mountain lab these days. I am glad I found this thread......
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I'm on my second pointing chocolate Lab......and ya got to love em.....great retrievers and hunt pheasants like mad. And I must say....the best dog in a duck blind ever.....(I'll get flamed by Chessapeak owners now)
I must say that neither of them point like a Wire hair I had.....but point they do....for a couple seconds maybe and that's all it takes.....
Just one thing about labs.....they are cold weather hunters.....
If it's 65 degrees out they will hunt hard for an hour and then follow you around for the rest of the day....or until they are well rested.....
If it's 35 degrees they will hunt quite hard all day!
A true pointer will hunt all day every day.....even to the extent of dieing of heat stroke.
I've not heard of this happening to a Labrador!
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I'm certain there must be some more laid-back pointing dogs, and for the most part I'd agree about scenting ability of pointers versus Labs, but after owning a neurotic, destructive, psychotic Visla with an excellent nose(for a couple of years), I went back to Labs. I hunt the dog for four months and live with it the rest of the year, so it needs to be a house dog, too. John at Tiger Mountain filled my request for a laid-back Lab with an above average nose. After the Visla tore up her house, my wife now despises pointing dogs so much I doubt any will cross the doorstep in the future, unless the dog and I are being tossed out of the house.
My dog typically hunts for 3 or 4 hours in warm temperatures, takes a break, and hunts another 3-4 hours in the afternoon. The better shape she's in, the longer the hunt. My experience has been the bigger the Lab, or the less effort the owner put into getting the dog in shape before the hunting season, the shorter the hunt in warm temperatures.
Living proof that expressing your opinion is not a good career advancement strategy.
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I recently got a yellow pointing lab out of Texas, I am eager to see how he turns out. He has been pointing bird wings. 8 weeks. I recently lost a black male, 13, he was a great dog in the field and in the home. He tried to point at times, but I though it was a mistake or accidental, I didn't comprehend labs could be pointers. This is going to be fun.
AJD
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Have a good time and enjoy it.
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my last lab, Peet, gone for 11 years now, was a staunch pointer... he was not bred as a pointer, but came from an unregistered litter from near Thomson, Il... he was in fact given to me at no cost....
Peet would lock up on some pretty stylish points and hold there... i neither encouraged this nor discouraged it, it was simply how he hunted... i could and did however, if the cover was thick or the ground was rough, tell him to "get'em" and he would break point and put pheasants in the air....
a lot of guys hunted over him, including some locally well known dog men who favored pointing breeds... the late Gene Genslinger, before he hunted behind peet, claimed that there was no such thing as a "true" pointing lab... afterwards, he allowed that there was "one".....
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire Ranger
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R.I.P. Peet... [img:center] ![[Linked Image]](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52/hotstick5p/peetnjohn.jpg) [/img] [img:center] ![[Linked Image]](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52/hotstick5p/img003.jpg) [/img] [img:center] ![[Linked Image]](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52/hotstick5p/img005.jpg) [/img]
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Nice pictures, great looking lab and family. It is or me is really tough to lose one. I had an english setter I lost a 14 years about 20 years ago, I still miss him. And this latest lose, a black lab male... it is going to take some time. I am really enjoying this new yellow pup. It is my second yellow lab, the first was a good hunter, but not near the lab my black was, and I don't think near the lab this new pup will be. He is fun and a challenge.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Campfire Oracle
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If puppies only knew the hopes we have pinned on them..
Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Ranger
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Scary, ain't it? johnw Nice pics.
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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Its a big load, but they can handle it. He does bring big smiles.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Campfire Regular
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I have a 14 week old pup from John Greer at Tiger Mountain. This is my second dog from Tiger Mt. and I am excited. If you go to his site and look at the first dog "Teddy" that is the sire of my new pup. We are couldn't be happier with John's training and breeding.
Mark
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."
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I enjoyed talking with John at Tiger Mt. when I was looking. At the time, having just lost a long time hunting/companion lab, the ability and proximity to go to the kennel and pick one out was a big consideration. We got a pup from the last litter coming out our breeders kennel. Our pup's sire and dam are very talented Labs.
We are extremely pleased with our Pup "Tex", (9 weeks) he is a smart one, and has been learning at an astonishing rate. He finds dead birds by scent, is retrieving, and is learning his basic commands. I haven't worked him much on pointing but he is doing it on his own.
I have had him out to the shooting range and the skeet range and he is not at all concerned/bothered with gunfire. I worked him into it slowly and from a distance. I plan on taking him to the dove field this weekend. This will be huge, you can see it in his posture when he is around birds. He goes into a higher gear and his whole attitude changes.
I enjoy working with and training dogs, It is fun, and is going to be a lot more fun.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sounds great. Continued good luck
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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At the Range. ![[Linked Image]](http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/a14jd/SRphoto.jpg)
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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DANG!...
I'm not the world's biggest Lab fan, but no breed produces cooler puppies!!!!
Dats a beautiful one there...
Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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I hate to rain on anyone's parade but there are a lot of GOOD pointing breeds out there and labs aren't among them. Labs are flusher/retrievers and are generally very good at it. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Get a pointer if you want a pointer or a lab if you want a lab -- or a wirehair/griffon if you want one that does a fair job of both. Half azzed points by a "pointing" lab aren't any better than a lab that flushes as they are supposed to. I apologize if I've offended anyone, I just can't fathom why anyone would want to convert a vette to a 4x4 or a lab to a pointer.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I just can't fathom why anyone would want to convert a vette to a 4x4 or a lab to a pointer. it's because of all the hunting dogs out there, the lab has the most pleasant and easy going personality... it is the most trainable, the friendliest, the most weatherproof.... take all of that and figure in that you want a dog to point birds and it only makes sense to breed the lab to point them..... Half azzed points by a "pointing" lab aren't any better than a lab that flushes as they are supposed to. my dog peet, pictured above, was never bred to point but he did it anyway... and staunchly... i could have gone to lunch with him on point and he'd still be pointing when i came back... my dads old friend raised, and trialed elhew pointers, and he was impressed with th dogs pointing ability... told me that i was all washed up before he hunted behind the dog... ate crow afterwards.....
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Ranger,
I do appreciate your willingness to share your opinion, and I do understand your inablilty to fathom this concept.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Border Collies are nice dogs too, but I don't see any reason to try to breed them to be good upland dogs as opposed to herding dogs. I truly enjoy hunting behind and owning labs, it is a great breed. I'd like to see it stay a great breed, polluting the gene pool with hesitant flushers (pointers) that will without fail be sloppily bred to labs that do as they should and flush, will ultimately result in a degredation of the breed as a whole. With all that said, it doesn't make any difference what I think so now that I have that off my chest I believe I'll retire for the evening.
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No offense taken but if you like Labs and you can get one that'll point why not get one? I've had three, both all around hunters, family dogs with dispositions hard to beat and no maintenance coats. Mine usually pointed and held point well but even a half assed point is better than a flush that's out of range and a Lab will usually go get what you shoot every time. A lot of pointers won't.
That said I think an in shape pointer or setter usually has more upland stamina than a Lab and I've seen a GSP and a Visla with a good dispositions that would hunt everything from quail to ducks and retrieve too.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Why can't we leave things alone a breed is a breed made to point are flush. Hell we should all go out a get a Labradoodle if you know what I mean.
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Campfire Ranger
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Why can't we leave things alone a breed is a breed made to point are flush. Hell we should all go out a get a Labradoodle if you know what I mean. if we'd left things alone they'd all still be wolves.....
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Guys,
I understand your position, and certainly you should choose the breed that is best suited to fit your needs. I would hope you may also understand your hunting needs and situations are not universal.
As an aside, I am curious as to your understanding of how the different breeds and their characteristics/qualities/traits were developed? Do you think, perhaps, it was through breeding for those specific qualities/characteristics?
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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I'm hoping I have a fair understanding about breed characteristics and traits...but that all being said, above and beyond man orchestrating the selective breeding of dogs to bring out certain traits ( like pointing in a Lab..) Individual dogs within a breed are often just that...individuals....I'm sure not every member of every litter of labs bred for pointing points...as it were.. Some ( a great many) labs make good Service Dogs for the disabled, some make great Narcotics detection or EOD dogs...they weren't "bred" for that..but if they have the traits and personality for it....why not??? Not every German Shepherd born is going to make a police K9...and so forth.. A few examples from dogs I've trained.. Two Border collies for Narcotics detection... Labs for same... Standard Poodle for a Service Dog.. and the one that takes the cake.. A "Goldendoodle" who was trained to track an Autistic Child who wanders... ( Dog is a crackerjack at it too...) Examples could go on and on, but a Lab that points?....You Bet. A Brittany that retrieves, likewise....and so on... Thanks for letting me spew a bit... ![[Linked Image]](http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss45/thmsbrownlee/013britney.jpg) Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Yes I understand how breeds developed I just don't see the need to make a Lab into a pointer if you want a pointer get one.
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Dukeman,
You are correct, if you want a pointer you should get a pointer.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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AJD; You are correct, if you want a pointing lab, you should get a pointing lab! Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Member
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I understand the idea of if you want a pointer, get a pointer but have to admit that when I was looking for a dog (my first) it was for one that had the following traits: ability to handle the weather (I'm allergic to dogs so it would definitely be an outside dog 100% of the time), ability to hunt both upland and waterfowl, trainable, and last but probably most important that it would be good with kids because even though I LOVE hunting the season is only so long therefore it would be the kid's playmate ALOT more then it would be my hunting companion.
Finally decided on the lab and the fact that she started pointing birds out at 10 months of age, even though her parents don't and nor have I heard of any of her littermates doing it, is one of those little side benefits that I am VERY happy to be able to take part in.
In summary, didn't set out to buy a pointing lab and didn't but am sure tickled that she does.
A post on the first page shows my Dixie in action.
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INGWE, 10-4, thank you.
BwanaND,
That's great. I had much of the same reasoning although mine will be an inside/outside lab. I primarily require a retriever for my hunting, but having one that could/may/would point is a bonus and an interesting and exciting possiblity. Yours is a beautiful lab and it sounds like she is exceptional.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,685
Campfire Tracker
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I've never heard anyone complain about a pointer that retrieves.
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AJD, didn't intend to direct last post at you, just a general observation. As far as I'm concerned the more I can get my dog to do adequately, whatever breed it is, the better.
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I didn't think you had. I agree with your statements. It is the point, no pun intended.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've never heard anyone complain about a pointer that retrieves. my GSP loves carrying things in his mouth but they were bred to be an all around dog more than a dedicated pointer.....when i let him out of his crate when i get home from work, first thing he does is scan the immediate area for something, anything that he can pick up and carry up the stairs....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire Ranger
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I've never heard anyone complain about a pointer that retrieves. and that's a pretty good point to mention, as in the earliest days of wingshooting pointers were only utilized to find and point the birds... once dead birds were on the ground the retrievers, which had been kept at heel, were sent to retrieve them.... it was knowledgeable dog men that recognized the different possibilities and selectively bred for dogs that were a bit more versatile... and this was a couple of centuries before the lab emerged in north america as a breed type... the lab, being by nature more versatile and biddable than most breeds, is a natural for breeding selectively for desirable behaviors (pointing)...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire Ranger
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i'm still going for a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon this time....
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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DANG!...
I'm not the world's biggest Lab fan,....
Ingwe I knew you were flawed.
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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John, good luck with your WPG.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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DANG!...
I'm not the world's biggest Lab fan,....
Ingwe I knew you were flawed. Took you THAT long to notice???  Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I was waiting for a serious character flaw such as the above.
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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Campfire Oracle
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I must say...I haven't been accused of much worse... Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Tex in school ![[Linked Image]](http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/a14jd/LakeIamoniaOpeningMorning11-21-09.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/a14jd/TexandWoodie.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/a14jd/1stDoveRetrieve11-21-09.jpg) Yep puppies are fun!
Last edited by AJD; 11/21/09.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Waggin-tail dog! Lots of promise.... Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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My lab points and can break ice and retrieve all day from the duck blind too. It's a win, win that some stuborn people have a snow balls chance in hell of figuring out. No matter to me.
Mark
Last edited by MarlinMark; 12/16/09.
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."
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I would guess that one could train a Rottweiler to retrieve and then it could guard your junkyard and be used for duck hunting or run Golden Retrievers on lions and bears so you'd have a hound and a good family dog... I still can't figure out why anyone would want to. Breeding labs to point will eventually pollute the breed to the point that they are no longer viable hunting dogs - no different than many other breeds that have enjoyed popularity and been subject to rampant irresponsible breeding practices. Eventually a hard driving lab that flushes will become anomalous as entire lines of dogs are polluted with genes prescribing hesitant flushers.
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Pollute the breed to make it a less than desirable dog amongst men that hunt birds is a tragedy....
I think the the man protest to much...
Guess all you want. I prefer to deal with known quantities.
Mark
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."
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I'm going to guess again and say that you haven't been around many men that hunt birds. Pointing labs are like labradoodles, just a fanciful idea that those who like to be different have embraced. The biggest difference is that labradoodles aren't hurting the breed at all because they aren't being registered and bred as labs. I wouldn't have any problem at all with pointing labs if they couldn't be registered or had a seperate registry.
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So you must like labs then?
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Hard to beat a good lab - however, as they become ever more popular they are bred for foolishness like color (fox red and silver for example), show dogs (conformation), pointing, pet industry, etc. --- none of which promotes quality labs that do what labs are supposed to do. Look at Irish Setters and Golden Retrievers, beautiful dogs, but how many breeders out there have a line with any hunting ability? Very few. One of the priniciple reasons for this is that they were indiscriminately bred for show and/or the pet industry - no concern for hunting ability. I don't want a german sheperd that can point any more than I want a lab that can. No different than having a 4 wheel drive sports car - pick one or the other or have one of each.
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How about the breeding for labs to be seeing eye dogs, bomb dogs, drug dogs, etc? Don't you think the pointers are all bred to point as well?
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They aren't BRED for any of those jobs - You can't find a breeder that is marketing Labrador bomb dogs, etc. --- The problem occurs with sloppy breeding between "pointing" labs and real labs and the resultant inconsistancy in offspring. If there were a seperate registry for "pointing" labs there wouldn't be a problem.
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I think the problem is all yours.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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You can't teach an old dog new tricks. And your guess that I haven't been around many men that hunt birds couldn't be farther out there than any of your other guesses.
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."
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Explain how it is good to breed labs for two very different types of hunting yet continue to allow them both to be registered as the same thing. Do you understand the difference between a pointer and a flusher/retriever? I'm all for folks making up their own oddball breeds of dogs, as long as those dogs aren't allowed to be registered thereby degrading the quality of the breed. The whole reason for a breed standard is to maintain the breed - you might not like that but nobody with a brain can argue it either. Pointing labs are no less ridiculous than labs running lions. If your justification for wanting a pointing lab is simply that you like their looks/temperment, then it would apply to absolutely any canine pursuit - why not breed them for cow dogs too. The distinction that some of you seem to be missing is that intentional breeding for non-breed standard traits is much different than training any individual dog for bomb detection, seeing eye dog, etc. Developing strains of the same breed for very different traits will invariably produce weakened flusher/retriever instinct in the breed as a whole... That's not a guess if you're wondering.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I am not interested it the attempt to explain/argue anything with you. As my grandmother said a long time ago, be careful of who you argue with as someone passing by may not which is what. I guess the long shot of it is, these dogs are out there and obviously there is a desire for them and that's the way it is.
Last edited by AJD; 12/20/09.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,577
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Nice try - pretty weak... Not that I didn't expect it. And you should have listened to your grandmother more closely, you got that one all wrong.
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May I interject? I've seen pointing labs do a fine job. They are wonderful in areas with a lot of game. They are intelligent and they make fine companions. Try them where you need a dog to really cast out in unknown country, well, not so much. I've concluded long ago that hunting competitions are silly excersices. I've also concluded long ago that pointing dogs really do excel at what they are bred to do. Versatile dogs do well at what they do; they are for the man that hunts a variety of game over a variety of conditions (but frankly do not truly excel at any jobs that are performed by specialists). Anytime you make a generalist from a specialist you give up some aspect of their performance. BTW, I know my ID is Huntaria Setters, but this is the finest pointer I've ever seen. This is why I love specialists. Anyway, this little girl is what pointers are all about. Setters are a slight generalization of this. ![[Linked Image]](http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/Huntaria_Pics/Reecepointing.jpg)
Last edited by Huntaria_Setters; 12/20/09.
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Well said Huntaria, I don't expect a Lab to perform at the same level as a pointer, after all those qualities were "bred" into pointers for centuries, whereas this is a relatively new development in Labs.
Last edited by AJD; 12/21/09.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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I've owned five Labs over the past forty years. Three over the past twenty that weren't from pointing stock but picked it up pretty quick. They would and will also sit in a duck blind and bring back ducks and geese.
My Labs weren't bred for it but I can see why hunters who hunt waterfowl and upland that like Labs would want pointing Labs. IMO the ability of a Lab to hunt upland and point in addition to retrieving waterfowl makes an already good dog a lot more versatile.
Last edited by 43Shooter; 12/21/09.
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Time for me to shut up. I said pretty much the same thing as above with the same conclusion six weeks ago.
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43 I am with you on the pointing labs.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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I've scanned through this post and noticed one of y'all making a statement on how labs can withstand the weather better than pointers. I think you need to tell this to a setter. I've hunted in ice storms and they keep on going. This is also why they make great Appalachian grouse dogs: their long coats protect them from the blackberry canes and rhoddendron hells.
Somebody else mentioned that a fellow ought to hunt with what pleases him. Amen. But whatever you do and whatever breed you hunt, understand their limitations. You'll never make a horseback dog out of a pointing lab, nor will you ever make a setter into a big water duck dog. I don't know how many dogs I've seen that were screwed up because somebody had some preconceived notion about what they were supposed to be.
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Huntaria, that cuts both ways don't it?
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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Maybe, I'm missing your question. I've seen pointing labs and I've seen pointing dogs. Neither excels at what the other was originally bred to do. I've had setters sit by my side and deliver doves to hand as well as any lab. I've never had a setter swim for 10 minutes to find a downed duck. I've never had a lab point on its own after casting for a half mile. Its really a different game.
I guess I'm getting old and grouchy, cause I hate to see sweet natured animals of a particular talent put into a box that they will never truly excel. Labs are wonderful retrievers that are smart enough to do other things like point and hold. Setters are wonderful pointers that do other things like retrieve.
I'm really trying to be the advocate for the dog. He has a hard enough time trying to figure out what you want. Sort of like how some folks are good with math and others are better left with English. One thing is for certain, the dog is trying to please you more than you are trying to please the dog. When you finally do put both together, the feeling is out of this world. That's the other reason I posted the pic of the pointer. She and the last 2 setters I've owned have finally been there. I've been training for 30 years. I doubt its the dog...
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I know what you mean, I always try and find the things that pleases them, and before you know it, they are trying to please me. It all works out. Not all dogs do things as well as other dogs, but working the dog on the things that excite it is the fun of it. Kinda like listening to a race, nothing like the sound and excitement of a race, and they either do it or they don't.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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I said I was going to shut up but that's well said; worth reading, worth thinking about.
Last edited by 43Shooter; 12/22/09.
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I don't doubt that there are "pointing" labs that can do a fair job of being a pointer. However, what about the majority of lab owners that don't want a lab that points? If I get a lab pup and it points it's going down the road, most serious lab owners feel the same way. The problem with allowing both to be registered as labs is that more and more pups will be born with a desire to point. That's fine if that's what you want, but not a good thing for those wanting to use a lab in its traditional role. One poster said that 3 of his labs have pointed and they weren't from pointing lines - unless things have changed, pointing (hesitant flushing) is a breed fault in labs. In other words, not a desirable trait. In order to protect the integrity of the breed from shortsighted breeding practices there should be a seperate registry for the "pointing" dogs. It would be a win-win situation as both labs and any offshoots would be better off without the insertion of undesirable blood.
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This is precisely my worry about trying to have a dog be something that he's not, or at least not particularly good at doing. If he can do it well enough for the owner, well great. While I get fairly sick of competitive hunting, that is one thing that it does help. Breeds are more or less purified of undesirable traits; that is why pointers are generally as good as they are. I often wonder at what costs, though.
Most of the labs I've seen that point, know the difference on where they are hunting. Just like most setters know what their ranges are whether they are hunting in the grouse woods or on the prairie. Dogs, I think, are sometimes smarter than we give them credit for. But dogs, like people, have different levels of intelligence. I own one setter that I genuinely believe is mentally retarded (a non-PC term, I know). I couldn't sell her in good conscience, so I had to keep her. God love her, she is so sweet, but she can barely find her way back to the kennel even though she tries.
Last edited by Huntaria_Setters; 12/22/09.
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In getting a hunting dog there are seldom firm guarantees. When I am in the "hunt" for a new pup, I generally check out the lineage. Find out the characteristics of the parents and grandparents and their hunting style. The breed "Labs" are so popular now, I would think that would be minimal due diligence. I wanted a "pointing lab" or at least the possibility of one, so I checked out the ancestry of it's immediate parentage and their hunting characteristics.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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About the only guarantee that you have is the blood line. But even then, you have to be careful. Some unscrupulous folks have been known to rig papers. That's one reason that DNA testing has come to the forefront.
In my own dogs, I will not breed either a sire or dam that I have not personally hunted, or have seen hunt. I have to be convinced that the traits I find important are there.
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IMO a more valid concern about the breeding of labs would be field trials. Breeding labs to be as hyper as possible and run 300yd blind retrieves in 8 seconds is detrimental to the breed IMO. These "champions" are then bred and pups are desirable. A lot of field trial pups are so hyper only a good trainer can control him enough to compete. That overactive trait has been getting bred into labs for many generations in some parts of the country. A gross difference from their European competitions where dogs are field trialed in a more natural hunting environment based primarily on obedience.
I don't have any problem with pointing labs. My first lab pointed but wasn't bred for it. My new 6month old pup has amazing pointing blood lines. Her grandfather is Sir's Mighty Eli the most decorated pointing field trial champion of all time(4 time grandmaster champion). Her grandmother is also a multi grandmaster champion.
The day I brought her home at 7 weeks she pointed a bird feather under my bird feeder in the back yard and held it for about 30 seconds. We've had weekends this fall where she retrieved ducks on Saturday morning and pointed pheasanst on Sunday. I'm sure she'll never point or honor points like a pointer but she points enough to serve the purpose. IMO this is an advantage and a good example of how breeds are refined over generations. We haven't reached a point where all breeds are perfect and nothing should change from here. Some things can change for the better.
There is no shortage of purist snobbery when it comes to upland bird dogs. Thankfully we're not all like that.
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There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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I mean this sincerely, so please don't take this as any other comment than asking for clarification. On the one hand you have concerns (and legitimate ones at that) about undesirable traits bred into trial dogs, but on the other you tell me that you have a terrific dog out of a championship bloodline.
Things, I hope, do change for the better. But anytime you start tinkering with a breed to gain an edge (such as the trials you mention), an offshoot is sometimes unintended consequences, that, in turn need to be bred out or lived with. I suspect there is a similar tradeoff with pointing labs. The ones I've seen have been by and large nice dogs, but they, like any breed, are not without their warts, either.
As for hyperactivity, this trait seems to be worse in the dogs that really don't seem to know what to do with it and was cause by a cavalier approach to breeding. I have seen more havoc wrecked while pheasant hunting by hyperactive labs that seem to not know what to do but run back and forth. I've seen the same problems with certain Brittany and GSP crosses too while grouse or pheasant hunting. They would point fine; holding seemed to be another matter.
As for purist snobbery, it certainly exists, but its not all necessarily snobbery either. I'm often torn on how dogs are line-bred by trialers. On the one hand, you look for desire, nose, speed and then, if your running horseback dogs, a hint of biddability. This will make for some incredibly hard-headed dogs that are best left to not only experienced, but skilled trainers. On the other, you have folks that will breed and sell to anyone willing to buy what they sell regardless of end-product performance. Here, you never know what you get. In neither case do you receive the moderation in breeding that you sometimes need to produce nice dogs for the serious foot hunter. About the closest that comes to splitting the difference, IMO, are NSTRA or grouse trial pointers and setters.
Finally, overall physical traits really matter. Labs are built the way they are to handle big water. Pointers are built the way they are to find pockets of game over large distances. "Versatile" dogs are intended to split this very large design space.
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HORSEMAN!.......I sir, shall try to enlighten you just a little more on the subject of "Field Trial" champions being bred to one another or breeding the best to the best, in order to get the very Best.
Now just so you will know because reading your post, you eveidently don't know the real facts concerning field trial champion bred dogs. We breed German Shorthair Pointers, for those who wish to compete in field trails, NSTRA or just foot hunt them on upland birds. All of my males except one is out of various national champions and that particular dog is a son of FC True Blu's Kicking Up Dust a national runner up Quail Hunting Champion. Our dams are also out of national champions! In the AKC they are titled dogs given the NFC title in front of their registered name, Such as NFC Magnums Touch Of Gold, NFC Heide HO'S MRT, NFC Heide Mighty City Slicker etc.
Now we just might get 2 or sometimes 3 pups out of a litter of 8 say, that will even have the inclination to RUN BIG!!! YOU can NOT teach a dog to run big, it will happen or it will not. This ability is passed on in the genes period.
Now in the GPS field trials, when speaking of the the ALL AGE DOGS, your talking about a dog running over 800 to 1500 yards. Now having a pup that really wants to run big is not easy come by out of a litter of even well breed field trial bloodlines. I have not met anybody yet, that can pick a champion out of a litter of 4 to 10 week old pups.
Further more, if you NEVER let a child taste an ice-cream cone, they will never miss such a treat. My dogs which have National Field Trial Champion Bloodlines, don't get to run BIG. They never get out of a 3 acre area to do their bird work and other training in until they are 14 months old. I am speaking of started dogs.
Our pups get to run with the parents and watch them everyday work in finding birds etc. They get to run 80 yards inside an L-shaped fenced compound and have to make a decision. They either turn or hit the fence and I have not had that happen yet in the last 10 years. I have seen many great champions that were NOT HYPER as you say in the home and hunting upland birds under foot.
Last edited by Tonk; 12/27/09.
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Running big is a desirable trait, IMO. Its damn hard to push a rope. Control is acheived when your dog trusts you. I've never seen a field trial champion that wasn't border-line outlaw. You just have to know how to handle the issue.
For the average hunter, this can, and most often is, problematic. It is most often solved with biddable sires and dams. You have to be careful or you'll wind up with a dog too soft to hunt. This is one reason I've tended toward the grouse and NSTRA dogs for foot hunting. In these games, dogs need to know how to search cover quickly, but effectively rather than just run to hit scent. Usually, brains wins out over legs. If a dog can't see you, he's never more than a quarter mile away.
I have both setters and a single pointer now that will go until they find game, or, they figure they've lost you and circle back. If they're gone for more than 10 minutes at a time, I figure its time to locate a beeper on point mode.
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I mean this sincerely, so please don't take this as any other comment than asking for clarification. On the one hand you have concerns (and legitimate ones at that) about undesirable traits bred into trial dogs, but on the other you tell me that you have a terrific dog out of a championship bloodline. Huntaria. I thought there may be some confusion when I wrote that. I was commenting on standard American field trials hence the reference to 300yd blind retrieves. Not "pointing" field trials. And I'm not saying I don't like field trial dogs, just that the breed has been changed significantly from standard American field trials and the average lab is not as doscile as 30 or 40 years ago(hence the trend right now for the import of mellow English labs). I'm no expert but I've owned labs all my life, grew up with a dog kennel, have read many books on dog handling and attended several field trials. Just my .02 Tonk, Thanks for your attempt at enlightenment. Unfortunately for you I've already been enlightened by several well regarded books about labs and hunting dog training in general. My hunting buddy is also a breeder and approved FEMA search and rescue trainer. The idea that labs from field trial bloodlines can be too hot for the average hunter is not one I dreamed up. Standard American field trials have gotten so far away from hunting scenarios it is a game unto itself. I've hunted with some outstanding dogs that wouldn't be *&%^ in an American field trial. The idea that a dog stopping, looking back at it's handler for guidance on a 300yd retrieve is a deduction is B.S. IMO. In a hunting scenario I want my dog to do that. Retrieving on a small ice cold body of water do you want a dog that's smart enough to skirt the edge to go get your ducks or one that goes in a perfectly straight line through the ice cold water wearing itself out? Good luck with your future field trials and good day.
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I appreciate the clarification. The reasons you listed is why I personally quit field trailing several years ago. Most of the trials, particularly horse back, left the realm of practicality years ago. NSTRA and grouse trials too have their issues. Its hard to believe what some folks will do to "win". I finally made the decision that winning to me was hunting my dog and killing game. Past that, its all gravy. Whatever breed folks choose, they should enjoy their bird dogs.
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I appreciate the clarification. The reasons you listed is why I personally quit field trailing several years ago. Most of the trials, particularly horse back, left the realm of practicality years ago. NSTRA and grouse trials too have their issues. Its hard to believe what some folks will do to "win". I finally made the decision that winning to me was hunting my dog and killing game. Past that, its all gravy. Whatever breed folks choose, they should enjoy their bird dogs. Well said. A back to the basics approach is a breath of fresh air sometimes. I'll take a day in the field over a day field trialing anyday.
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