Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles .223 for hunting

the .223 was developed to kill and maim HUMANS; It was never considered for killing big game; If you hunt big game with a .223, you are stupid, or ignorant;

You're either a tard or a troll. Not sure which.

Or should I remind you the 30-06 was designed to kill and maim people too?

Your original post oughta get a thread cranked up...
I'll start it by saying I must be both, stupid and ignorant, cause Ive done a BUNCH of it. Ignorant bliss has allowed me to never lose a head of game to the little rifle....
Oh, well, I don't even know you, but I've been called a lot worse by people who knew me a lot better!
Ingwe

Touche' !
Ingwe

go shoot your dog with a BB gun; he will yelp like hell; you could kill your dog with a BB gun; And he would suffer before he died; so, go out and shoot a deer with a .223; same thing; (unless you shoot it in the head);
POINT IS, this round it not capable of HUMANLEY killing ANY large animal on the first shot, unless the shot is perfect;
you guys want to have your macho, hot guns (LOOK WHAT I HAVE), then go out and try to kill something with it;
US real hunters don't use these people killing tools to hunt with; You 223 guys find me a REAL hunter that uses this caliber to hunt with;

Don't tell me...let me guess.
You rode the "Little" bus to school, right???

Where's Steelhead???
Dude...I may not be a REAL hunter but the half dozen or so that I've popped behind the shoulder, died on the spot.

go shoot your dog with a BB gun; he will yelp like hell; you could kill your dog with a BB gun; And he would suffer before he died; so, go out and shoot a deer with a .223; same thing; (unless you shoot it in the head);
POINT IS, this round it not capable of HUMANLEY killing ANY large animal on the first shot, unless the shot is perfect;
you guys want to have your macho, hot guns (LOOK WHAT I HAVE), then go out and try to kill something with it;
US real hunters don't use these people killing tools to hunt with; You 223 guys find me a REAL hunter that uses this caliber to hunt with;

Oops..see second post...
Ingwe

Any deer that drops after being shot with a .223 round must be a 'southern' deer, where they don't get much bigger than dogs;
take your 223 up north, or out west, where deer are LARGE, and you will be asked about your gun;
And I will still stand by my comments;
Anyone want to comment?

Yep. Check out my comments and my Location under the avatar....
Ingwe

'Tarded trolls...

Thanks for tuning in Sam, this is pretty entertaining..
Ingwe

Would appear as if someone else fell victim to a mild load.

Gotta love the one gene folks from R-Kansas.

How many have you shot & wounded Mike? Or haven't you tried?
Where is your "research" coming from...A lot of folks here have found the .223 a dandy little round for deer. In case you haven't noticed, there are a few bullets actually designed for deer in .224 caliber. I'd suggest that if you have no actual experience in taking deer with the .223 you might wanna reconsider your "Stupid/Ignorant" comments....you're showing your ass...

Of course if we hadn't dropped a few with 223's and 22-250's I wouldn't believe it either...(grin)


Use a little common sense before the shot and I bet it works!

Should I or shouldn't I....

I just noticed this is the AR forum.
Hell, a guy should be able to take out the entire herd!

you should...you should...
Ingwe

I'll bet a "Real" hunter could....
Ingwe

That's why he started it here, figured he would be the 16th member of the Arkansas (AR) club........

Ingwe

[img]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Texas4-1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Texas.jpg[/img]

Lessee... a picture is worth 1.000 words...thanks for the Readers Digest on Deer and .223, condensed version... BTW;
Theres a couple of Hooter Blacktails in that mix, good on ya man!
Ingwe

Thinking there might be one or two in there that are a tad heavier than a 'southern' whitetail, thicker hair/hide also.


Course I could be guessing.....

Yeah, my little log book shows 23 deer and 9 antelope over the years with a .223, but most were in the southern part of Montana, so they mighta been little ones too....I'm just guessing as well.....
Ingwe

PM JeffO about this....I've heard he knows all about the 223 and deer.

They do look a little chunky.

Is ya thinking deer is tougher than humans? I know I wouldn't want to be shot by a 223..... would you want to test that theory out?

I have used my .22-250 on deer using Federal ammo loaded with the 60 grain Nosler Partition bullet. Dropped that buck in his tracks. This is not what I typically use but as always bullet placement is everything. I'm sure many out there have lost deer hit with larger caliber guns due to poor shot placement.

Why start a post like this?

I've not killed one yet with a 5.56x45, but I recently loaded many 64 gr Power Points for just that purpose. After learning this information and deciding to go ahead with my plans anyway, I must really be both stupid and ignorant, huh? And I'll only be toting a 5 round magazine to boot. Maybe I should pre-load a couple of spare 5 round mags and practice my tactical reloads some. Of course, those Georgia deer are about the size of a miniature poodle, so I may be okay. I am definitely stupid AND ignorant. Is there a cure?

Yep, a 62gr TSX.............grin

The 64's dig plenty deep, a PP is the only 22 caliber slug I've recovered from a critter bigger than a lab and smaller than an I-Hop waitress.

I would not use my 223 AR 15 for deer hunting but it is the only rifle I use to kill feral hogs. All hogs are shot at night about 40 yds right behind the ear. Have taken over 100 hogs for the Texas Parks and Wildlife. The main reason for not hunting deer with my AR is that I only use a bow for whitetail. I do have 2 safes full of rifles but archery is my favorite way to hunt. If I had a way to mount my PVS-14 on my bow I would put an arrow in them hogs at night also.

The most common rifle for elk is 30-06 150 gr at 2910 fps
Bull elk average 700 pounds.
The .223 will push a 64 gr bullet 3050 fps.
We would expect then that the average weight of a ruminant that is most commonly hunted a .223 would then weight and average of 300 pounds. That would be bigger than an average mule deer buck.
But I have never seen anyone hunting mule bucks with a 223.
Why is that?
Because in the trade off with [rifle weight][rifle accuracy][rifle range][recoil][killing power], the average guy can afford the weight of something more than a 223.

As an aside, the 30-06 is registered at 60,000 psi but has the case head strength be mass produced at 62,000 psi or hand loaded for a particular rifle at 65,000 psi.
The .223 is registered at 55,000 psi, but has the case head strength to be mass produced at 70,000 psi and hand loaded for a particular rifle to 73,000 psi.

Fixed that one for you

I wouldn't think twice about killing deer with a .223, and I intend to this fall. The AR15 with a Short Dot should be darn near perfect for stand hunting or driven hunts.

Put together a tiny NEF Handi-rifle (superlite, youth model) chambered in .223 Rem. a couple years ago. Topped the little gun with a Weaver 4X fixed power scope. I wanted to see if the little rig worked last year, so I took it to my blind. I kinda felt like the gun should have said "Mattel" instead of New England Firearms, but when an average sized, mature doe wandered by @ 50 yards, the 53 gr. TSX took her cleanly. Post mortem examination certainly revealed adequate damage for clean harvests with boiler room placement.

It's not a rig I'd want to use for "jump shooting" whitetails, but I'm convinced it's a viable tool with proper bullets and placement.

Note: Muzzle blast from this cartridge in a shorter barrel is surprisingly nasty.

PC

cause he's a [bleep] idiot

Well another Arkansan living up to our reputation I see.

Where'd he go?
This was just getting funny.

I'm in a class for deploying USAF EOD types. 2,400 rounds of 223 and 9mm in two weeks. We're wearing body armour for two reasons: to simulate being in the AOR (in Iraq or Afganistan),a nd to protect against being killed by a stray round (lots of live fire).

Nobody, and I mean nobody, that I konw who has been shot by a 223 (I know three folks personally), thinks its a pop-gun. They thank God that we cannot use partitions and TSX's in battle.

I would not be afraid to shoot a deer, 'lope, 'bou, or any other deer-sized animal with a 223 and a proper bullet.

Well guys this type of thread pops up on most forums on the net from time to time, generally about once a year. I find most entertaining as the people that have never used a .223 on Deer or used the wrong bullet from a .223 on Deer are the ones saying it can't kill anything larger than a jackrabbit.

A story comes to mind. It was 1982 and that summer I had sold every rifle I owned and set out to hunt with Single Shot Pistols. I bought a T/C Contender Super 14 in .223 Remington and a Remington XP-100 I had rechambered to the 7mm I.H.M.S.A. Cartridge.

Well my hunting buddy and I had filled all of our Deer Tags and decided to head out to try to call in a Fox or Coyote. I was armed with the .223 T/C Contender Handgun. While we were driving across the US Dam Road to our Hunting Spot we happened upon 2 hunters that flagged us down.

These two hunters had wounded a 4x4 Whitetail Buck and ran out of ammo trying to finish it off. The Buck was standing in a food plot about 100 yards out, perfectly facing us. They asked if we had a gun and could finish off their Buck.

I told my buddy, let me do this. I got out of the pickup, flipped the legs of the bipod down and placed the .223 T/C Handgun on the hood of the pickup. These two hunters said "You can't shoot that Buck with that".

I politely asked them where they wanted me to put the bullet. At that instant I centered the crosshairs on the Bucks chest and touched the 2 pound trigger. At the shot the Buck sat on it's rump for a split second and then fell over to the side and never moved.

The story gets better. Next these two nimrods asked if we had a knife so they could field dress this Buck. I told my buddy this is going to be interesting and that we had to watch this. My buddy produced a knife and we made our way to the Buck (that was stone dead). Well after a moment or two of these guys trying to figure out how to start field dressing this Buck I said "let me show you".

In the end I was glad I did as I found the bullet from my .223 in the Bucks left hind quarter just in front of the hip bone about an inch in a perfect mushroom. The bullet weighed 42grs. recovered weight.

The amazing part is the bullet itself. The bullet was a 55gr. Hornady SX (Super Explosive) fired from the muzzle of the T/C Contender Handgun at 2850 FPS in the form of Black Hills Shooters Supply commercial reloads.

When my daughters were first starting hunting they both used a Ruger KM77RP MKII .223. I started out loading 70gr. Speer Semi Pointed Bullets and ended up using 64gr. Winchester Power Points, both with good results. I have also used plain old Remington & Winchester Pointed Soft Points on Whitetails.

In addition I have dispatched my share of Whitetails at the scenes of Vehicle / Deer Accidents at a variety of ranges over the years. The last was a HUGE 5x5 Whitetail Buck out on I-29 a couple years ago. The Buck had a broken back and was trying to crawl off at a range of about 60 yards. A 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip from a DPMS Panther Bull 20 Fluted through the lungs put an end to the trophy bucks suffering.

Two years ago I tried to work up a load for my DPMS Panther Bull 20 Fluted using 60gr. Nosler Partitions after reading an article on the net entitled "When Bullets hit Bone". I was never able to come up with a load that produced the accuracy level I was after, so unfortunately never did get the opportunity to try them out.

I have a buddy that has shot a Whitetail or two with the 69gr. Sierra BTHP out of his AR-15. He says this is a BAD Deer Bullet as it is too touch and does not expand. Another aquaintance used the same bullet in the form of Federal Premium Ammo with similar results.

It's all about bullet placement regardless of caliber used. I have had Deer hit with a .30-06 run farther than Deer hit with a .223.

The bottom line is, if you can place the bullet in the right place the .223 will leave you eating venison. If you can not put the bullet in the right place it really doesn't matter what you use.

Sorry for being so long winded.

Larry

my experiences with the 69 have been opposite, showing more expansion than I care for....

Jeff, have you ever shot for the shoulder? Just wondering if it would hold together, or enough to get the job done. Thanks.

We've just killed about a dozen with a 223 the last two years....Of course that was by my young 'uns ranging from 4 to 12 who didn't know that a 60 grain Partition through the shoulders won't get the job done, except when launched from the the hands of an experienced rifleman who is an expert marksman and carefully picks his shots...

Of course, they do outshoot most of the grown-ups I hunt with...grin.

I think I'll keep them blissfully ignorant and drilling shoulders and filling the freezer and having fun.

DJ

Nope, never shot for the shoulder. Strictly lungs or head. Head shots are violent from what I've seen. and the one time I tried for lungs and hit a vine and hit a leg bone on deflection, that bullet shattered bone but we trailed the deer for over 5 hours getting glimpses and a few shots off that were misses, and from the fragments and blood trail that bullet hit the leg bone and never made it any further.

Doesn't mean I don't use it at times, I'm just more careful, thinking of it more as a BT type.

BUT OTOH I fouled a barrel with them once before some practice and shot 5 rounds at about 300M into a side by side fridge freezer and all 5 exited.....

I'm confused. I've heard of shooting fish in a barrel (well, the expression, I mean; I've never "seen" it,) but aren't you supposed to shoot the deer OUTSIDE and then put it in the freezer?

What did that freezer ever do to you, give you the cold shoulder?

I remembered you saying they went through a fridge or freezer at 300 yards. Didn't know you shot 5 and all five exited. Pretty incredible. That made me think a shoulder shot should work pretty well with that kind of tough bullet construction.

I wonder, my leg bone deflection shot was less than 75 yards, the fridge was 300M plus. Of course the fridge could have closed the HP tip as its pretty small, instead of opening it.

I have a buddy that shoots hogs all the time with 69s.... of course those are all head shots..... She is hell on wheels with a Rem 700 Varmint in 223....

Lets put it this way, when I do use or simply happen to have 69s instead of something else(I happen to have more than a few mags around loaded with them....) I don't try for bone unless its cranial. I also take controlled shots. May well be why I've never shot an elk either, the few seconds I've been given a few times I've not been comfortable at all with the shot chances and if I"m not 200% I won't fire.... ANd hence, except for the deflection I don't miss my target area by more than 1-2 inches generally....IE haven't hit a shoulder to this day with the 223.... used to all the time when I was young with a 243 and learned not to like that messs.

Freezer runs on a timer. Remote control. Open freezer doors, make sure feeder runs, bait deer into freezer, shoot deer when in freezer, then remote close door and turn on. Saves a lot of work , bullet hits metal, opens up, then guts, cuts and wraps and is frozen ready to serve in 24 hours...

Its WAY above the technology of just feeders. But we are pretty advanced out in the country....

Jeff

Wow. I guess you are advanced. Is there a website that gives details of this technology? Or is this just a Lagrangian point?

My little brother traded his deer rifle for a dpms panther bull with a 16 or 18 inch barrel when he was in college. Deer season came around and he decided to use the panther cause that's all he had. I loaded him up some 64g winchesters over data 2200 and they only chronied 2950 or so out of the short barrel. He ended up killing 3 or 4 decent mule deer with that load during his college years. Mostly through the lungs with a quarter size exit. They typically ran about 50 yards and dropped.

Bb

Patent not approved yet, cannot answer that question at this time. Wait for Billy to have it for sale on infomercials later this year.....

Steelhead,

Cept for the gay color scheme...:)

I REALLY like those rifles!

Looks like from the pictures you got three different ones. The yellow one seems to have a stainless and then a blued barrel?

The pink one has a barrel brake on the end?

What are the barrel contours?
Remingtons all I assume?

I shouldn't come here and read this forum... It ends up costing me money!

6x loopie with m1 knobs?

I could really really like that rig.

The Grape one is a pard's rifle and no brake, those are for Iowa hunters.

Only two rifles in 223AI pictured (mine and pards) both have a #1 Pac-Nor 1-8" twist tubes. The bumblebee was coated that's why the barrel is no longer SS.

This thread (and those pictures) has converted me. I always viewed the 223 with a certain amount of disdain.

I'm gonna get me one.

Some of them super boolits too.

You are definitely a first-rate [bleep]. Steely had it right. Is you momma recoil sensitive, cuz daddy was definitely shootin' a reduced load.

I live in Michigan. Deer here here are BIG. My cousins wife (recoil sensitive) in the U.P. has been killing deer with a 223 her whole life. 55gr soft points. No "super bullets".

A guy I know gets paid by the state to take out deer. There are way too many in some areas. The meat goes to the needy. He and his cohorts all use 223's and 223AI's. 1000's of deer.

I will be hunting them this year with my new AR. I'm willing to bet my 70gr TSX's will work very well. I'll be sure to post pics......

I have been thinking about this whole subject now for several days, and we all do what we do for various reasons, my reasons are always usually related to a lack of money for guns...

If I were to get a custom rifle built and face all the frustration and waiting and this and that... I would have to invest the money and time into a nice 243 if I were after a soft-recoil, "girls-gun" so to speak.

Not to be a smart alec Steelhead, but how did your reasoning play out in your head to not invest in a 243 instead? I think that might be my next project and skip the 223.

Nice pics though!

223AI is just one of many I have built and also the one that gets the most trigger time. It's nothing (or it was) to shoot a couple hundred rounds an afternoon at shiit, hence the love for the 223AI. I also enjoy watching everything happen in the scope, recoil of the 243 won't allow that unless it weighs about 15 pounds.

Many folks is scared of what they don't know, but if 19 thousandths of an inch makes you feel warm and cozy have at it.

Well you got me laughin on that one...

Sure! Isn't bickering about 19 thousandths of an inch what makes 24 hour campfire entertaining? LOL

200 rounds an afternoon would be a nice day, but right now with work and ammo shortages, just a dream for me.

In any case, I see your reasoning. Thanks for the reply.

over a 243 there is the issue of barrel life too... some 223 tubes I"ve pushed to over 10,000 rounds, actually decently over 11... and barely holding moa or just over.

A 243 is dead in 1200 rounds generally speaking....

Now that is funny.

Ignorance is bliss. I've no doubt that the 223 is probably not a good choice for many hunters. In the right hands, with the right bullet, rock on.......

ain't nothing ignorant about the use of the 223.....

223 no less ignorant than broadhead. I am NOT a bowhunter. I have soundly thumped many an animal with 223. Hole in heart/lung = dead animal. That statement I am MORE than qualified to make.

Hope you did not misunderstand. That comment was directed at the original poster, not Passport.......

Killed plenty of white tail and Mulies here in Montana with 223. Modern bullets make a big difference. We aren't using M198 or M855.

Keep in mind that folks were killing deer with patched round ball, 32-20 and 22 hornet decades before super magnums appeared

Caliber is not a replacement for shot placement or hunting skill. If you blaze away at deer from 500 yards you might need a big rifle. If you stalk up and put a shot in the boiler room at less than 150 yards, 223 works just fine.

Just started the range testing phase of developing a deer load for a new .223 yesterday. Bullets tried so far are 60 gr NP, 62 gr TSX, and 65 gr. Sierra GK. Like all my .223's, this one doesn't seem to want to shoot the NP's very well. The TSX looks good, the Sierra looks better. Any thoughts on these particular .224 bullets or others for deer?

I'm a huge TSX fan, though I'm shooting 53 grainers...killed a bunch with them in both .223 and .22-250. Dober likes the Sierra Gameking, and though I've never tried them, I trust his opinion...
Ingwe

I've had good luck with 53gn TSX. We're hunting over by Two Dot and range is rarely over 125 yards. TSX seem to not mess up the meat as much. I tried some 64gn Winchester that was like a bomb going off at 75 yards

Well i see that ricky retardo has gone into hiding since you guys have used logic and pictures to show him otherwise. I wouldnt hesitate to use my .223 for deer with the right bullet of course....gotta love them trolls...