Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Terry Cross on Leupold...

To a lot of people it matters where "overseas" something is manufactured - whether by friend (e.g., the Philippines, Taiwan, South Korea) or foe (e.g., Communist China).

Talk about irrational use of gear! Driving pumpkinballs with the Hubble, nails with optics and trying to range stuff with a low-end LRF...
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Actually its on a SMI smokeless barrel for my Encore that shoots the .458 caliber Barnes TSX at 2550 fps or a Hawk 250 gr bullet at 2700fps. And yes I do get a kick out of plinking at long ranges with it. Its not the normal muzzleloader, so before you assume thats it a regular old smoke pole with a 20x scope on it you should ask question before criticizing me.

And as far as the driving nails thing. I was trying to show you guys theres alot better products out there then Leupold! Of course the price of the USO is a big difference but it doesnt have to be a 3000 dollar scope. Zeiss conquest scopes I think are clearer than a Leupold VX3 matter of fact I just looked thru them 2 hrs ago at a Gander Mountain and compared the two. I mentioned USO because its probley the only scope thats completly made in America. Everyone is outsourcing things now and if you cant control the quality of stuff coming out from overseas then you shouldnt stamp your name on it.

Really would you guys stamp your personal name on a product without knowing what kind of quality it is??

Matt

Glad to see you posting here, had not been here in a while.

When is Leupold going to kiss and make up with Premier Reticle?

(rhetorical...)

Hell ain't froze over,yet.
dave

I think too many people missed the point about tactical and precision scopes. That is what the rant is about. I own 3 loopies 4 nikons 1 IOR and other "american" and Japanese scopes. I will not buy another loopy as I feel they are inferior to other scopes on the market.

I don't like to buy a scope based on CS as if the CS is spectacular I would think there is something wrong with the product that there is so many replacements on hand.

No scope is fully American but bet I will research as best I can when dropping down $1500 on a scope. NF or Loopy? USO or Loopy? IOR or loopy? Or lower priced Sightron vs a Loopy?

Think outside the world of the Campfire for a minute. There are operators who depend on thes products to keep their azzes safe and secure. Which would you rather have on your stick? The optic that goes tits up on a regular basis, there is no one consistent problem as there is multiple consistent problems, or the one that is proven most durable and won't get you killed.

Leupold ain't it. They sold out for a few people to reap the rewards. Like most businesses in the USA.

personally I think that most of the issue people have with Leupold is about what you pay for versus what you get from them these days. Now that the US Federal gov is looking again at "manufacturer fixed lowest retail pricing" there may be some changes regards pricing, but who knows as I don't own a lobbyist in DC.

Am yet to see "wrong"! I have been following this thread by Terry on another forum and he has contributed much more input than just quoted here. Has been a real interesting one with many disatisfied people adding their 2 cents and/or frustrations. So obviously he as a shooter, is not alone in his thinking... I have been a long term Leupold user and enjoy the scopes I have very much, but like many I am not happy with Leupolds direction, customer service and some of their newer products have little attraction. The forums are an avenue for peoples opinions good or bad, liked or disliked. Thats the nature of the beast! Quoted and pasted opinion is no less important than anyone elses words. We all bat on the same level on the net!

When I buy my next Leupold, it won`t be a new manufacture, it will be an older, if I can find one. No one over here wants to part with them... I am guessing there is a good reason for that. But at the end of the day its each to our own and thats what keeps this sport/past time interesting and rarely dull...

Cam...
ps: I am rancher but also actively involved in marketing thu another business. You don`t have to be a "marketing guru" to see a problem or potential hickup or have an opinion!

The older VXIII are the best of all of them. Clarity is second to none.

If we went through our houses/vehicles do we treat all of our purchases to this same "Made in America test"? Computers? Why our scopes?

For me it's about things that matter...almost nothing in my life is about corporate profit, so I go out of my way to avoid buying anything that matters from that rat hole.

China is a morass of scammers trying to make a few more bucks by cutting quality whenever and whereever they can. Americans, after all, are too stupid to notice the difference as long as its a great deal...and quality is not number 1 or 2...it's not even on the agenda.

That's why that one little pri*k decided to put plastic in the dog food, and it wasn't just the cheap brands that turned out to be selling the crap.

There is currently a good book out titled "Poorly Made in China" that sums things up.

TC

I own a lot of Leuopold scopes and they all say made in USA. I recently purchased a set of 10x42 Golden Ring binoculars and there isn't a word on them stating where they were made. They are some really fine glass, but I wonder where the heck they came from. For the money I would hpoe they were US made, but I doubt it.

"Why our scopes?"
Because Leupold made their name on "Made in the USA" and thats what people expect and like to see, along with excellent quality, cracking good service and products from a company who listens to its users! They had all that and its what people respected, wanted and paid for. Nothing wrong with a Japanese scope, or Italian, French, Swiss, German, CZ, English, etc if thats where your passions take you [of which mine have at times and will again] or even Chinese if thats what your budget dictates. You know what you are buying and who you are supporting from the outset. Leupold was an American icon, that people bought as proudly American. Many customers have been dis-satisfied with their favourite brand manufacturing offshore, a drop in service quality experienced by many and manufacturer - customer communication that some shooters have found lacking... Basically there are shooters unhappy with Leupolds direction and it concerns more than one issue. Of which I can understand. If Leupold was an Aussie company that I was proud of, I would feel exactly the same way! Thats where the comments arose and why people voiced their opinions...

NOT! maybe none that you have looked through

Good morning all.
After worrying lately about waking up to find a severed elk head in my bed, I have decided to make a post on your forum.

First off, I am not an expert or authority on scopes, rifles or shooting. I try everyday to keep an open mind. I encourage others to do the same regardless of past experience and/or brand loyalty. I want to learn and develop new skills until they carry me out feet first. To do otherwise will have me wake up one day so far behind the curve that I would never catch up.

I bought my first Leupold in 1978. 10x Silhouette model for varmint hunting. Almost died because the scope was costing more that the rifle but I was forever a convert to good glass after that moment.

I am not trying to sell one brand over another and am not here to market anything. And yes, I have run my business for 21 years and have some hard headed ideas about marketing and the way the world turns.

The paragraphs posted quoting me at the first of this thread are 100% mine and I stand by them 100%. However, there is much more debated and commented on than that. As with all internet forums, all context is lost in the typed word and there is also a limit to what one will usually try to explain during one post out of respect for the bandwidth of the hosting site.

This topic is a serious issue for me because I am a Leupold fan. I don�t want them to fail. I don�t want them to lay off workers and I don�t want them to stop innovating. But that is where they are headed. There are several other posts written by me on the original forum thread that goes into every issue you bring up here. If you had accessed those other posts and responses, I feel that you would have a better understanding of my opinion and purpose in writing in the first place. Leupold as well as others are supposed to be market driven. Well, you and I are the market.

Now out of respect for the owner / host of this site, I shall certainly not invite everyone here to another site. At the same time, I will not copy and paste my other posts from that thread to this one as, once again, it would be disrespectful to the host of this site due to the large amount of text. As your member Cam0063 mentioned, that thread, like this one, evolved over many days and just about every angle of this was debated and responded to my me.

There are some here that say I was just whining. I guess in the internet context, I was doing exactly that. In my eyes, I was publicly posting my frustration with Leupold taking the shooting market for granted. Note what I said, "the shooting market" not the buying market. Only a small portion of their products actually get used over a few days a year. Leupold probably pays their bills with the 18 zillion scopes they sell through BassPro, Cabelas, etc. Anybody want to take a W.A.G. about how many of those buyers think they are buying a U.S. produced product? . . . . . That is one of my main issues. The other half of my frustration is that their failure rates as well as pricing are on a constant upward trend.

I live in rural Louisiana. I�m a hunter. Literally killed a coyote out of my bedroom window one morning before school. (Mama was not pleased). I can assure you that 99% of the purchasers of the Leupold product line shoot less than 20-30rds a year in their rifle. They may or may not check their zero after the counter clerk bore sighted it for them. They possibly attempt to dial a zero change once a year and the rifle only sees daylight 2 months out of the year. I am very ignorant of the member background here but would bet that most of you are very advanced compared to that example and are using your rifles AND scopes much more often. But guess what? Your group is less than 1% of their market.

While Leupold does have some innovative ideas coming through in their designs, the quality of materials and workmanship sometimes fall to such low delivery standards that the �great design improvement� falls on its face. You don�t have to be a marketing guru to figure that out Art.

Most shooters in my niche qualify, compete, practice or recreationally shoot year round. The scopes may be dialed from 25yds to 1000yds multiple times in the same week or even day. Magnification is zoomed in and out many times to accommodate observation or target distance changes. Some of the turrets actually have visible wear from use. They are transported in trucks, planes, cars and on foot. They are carried with other gear and are exposed to a lot of elements. I am in no way saying that what your hunting rifles put a scope through is less important, but it is different. Any design, material or assembly issues will absolutely, positively result in a failure much faster when the product is being run hard. Not abused, just used repeatedly.

I appreciate the owner of this site letting me post a response here. I still have a dilemma on how to properly and respectfully provide access to my other responses in this debate. I shall leave that up to the person starting this thread and the moderators/owner of the site.

After reading a more complete version of my concerns and responses, you may still disagree with me. That's cool. It's just the internet. However, I do believe you would have a better understanding of the market and the way Leupold is coasting on their original name recognition as well as the Mk 4 named product line much to everybody�s ignorance.

I believe in giving credit for past track record also Ray but when a company markets their products on what they �used to do�, that is where I have to take a close look at what is coming out of their boxes now. Evidently, your failure rate for new Leupolds installed on customer rifles has been more favorable than mine. And this is not about bashing imports Ray. It�s about misleading marketing and consumer information. Please look further into the actual debate before you make up your mind for good. As a tenured member of this forum, you owe it to the rest of the membership here.

It really doesn�t make a moose fart whether I used to build a good gun 20 years ago to a customer that is currently accepting delivery of one built last week. Ditto for scopes and scope companies.

Respectfully and with best regards,
Terry

Thanks for the post Terry!!!

Heck, I'm having issues with a Mark4 3.5-10x40 right now. It's on one of my main rifles I shoot steel with from 0-1000yds and after a day of twisting turrets it's not returning to zero. Leupold said, "box it up and send it in", so we'll see how it comes back......hopefully it'll return to zero after a day of turret twisting because I really do like that scope.

Welcome to the Fire Terry!

I really enjoyed your article on the 260 AI by the way.

Dober

EXCELLENT POST TERRY

Very well put Terry.I completely understand your position.

Well said Terry... Your original post which was "quoted" here and started this thread, originated from a tactical forum where it was followed quickly with much, much more input from yourself and others. Unfortunately many Campfire members had not had access to this. I am sure the informative input you have just shared now has put more of a light on the subject for readers and shows where you are coming from. I have enjoyed the read elsewhere and agree with your thoughts and opinions and those of many others on this now and before.

Great post and welcome to the fire.
dave