Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles laminated vs walnut stock...

Dan
Apples to oranges arguments will not cut it... "However I'm straight up calling bullschitt on the fact that any board has a greater strength and stability than a wood of similar density that has been laminated."

A couple points you missed: STock laminations are not 90% to each other. Even if they did, there are woods tough enough to compete on strength. There are others able to compete on hardness. Yet others competing on stability. A few spank them on all counts.

Mesquite, some walnut, mountain mahoghany are three laminate cannot match in any of the categories.

The comparisons between lighter woods laminated are not valid because they are not woods used in building stocks and they do nothing to address the issue of density... Dense woods have more "wood" in the wood and less air. Wood is much stronger than air...

For your fir plywood vs. fir boards comparison it is obvious the glue holding the laminations in place makes all the difference. Also, the fact those karate geeks are breaking cross-grain boards, not long grain.

Here is a typical karate "feat" and it takes remarkably little to break boards... The holder MUST provide resistance equal to the energy required to break the board, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xp0wz4d2ls

Had a guy show up at a mill I was working in looking for 10" long pieces of 2x16 pine for a karate demonstration... They had to be clear... but small cracks were okay...
art

I wouldn't call laminates inferior in quality either. Relative to the species of wood being used, laminates tend to be high grades of the same, IOW, virtually clear, perfect wood is used for the veneers used in stock-making. (The same is obviously not true for some of the construction grades of plywood.) And it could easily be argued that the wood commonly used in gun stock laminates: birch, is inferior to the commonly used walnuts used in nicer wood stocks. That would be true.

And, while laminated birch is quite stiff and hard, it is also more prone to chipping as it (and the glues most often used) can be very brittle.

I would also argue that it is not impossible to make a very attractive laminate stock. I never have cared for the relative clubs which Ruger uses for their laminated stocks - even though it is basically the same pattern which I find okay in walnut also on their M77s. However, a laminated stock like the one used on the Remington Mountain rifle is one I find quite appealing. I suppose that comes in part because of how it feels in the hand. A laminated stock (which is generally stronger than solid wood) can be made equally and plenty strong (as solid wood) by reducing its weight and lines somewhat.

As a practical matter, if the wolves -whatever form wolves may take- were right outside the door, if I could choose to arm myself with a bat made from the usual walnut or the usual birch laminate found in rifle stocks, the question would be a no-brainer.

But since I don't need to brain any wolves with clubs and I can still make aesthetic choices which also reflect whatever level of practicality I desire:

A beat-up peice of walnut looks better than a brand new laminate or synthetic and properly sealed, they wont move. With a good oil finish walnut will take some serious abuse. I rub down with BLO will keep the stock good looking and servicable for years to come. Make my vote...walnut

Art,



Plywood is stronger than its component woods because of the cross grain laminations. What if you laminated the above woods in a cross grain fashion?

If you laminate wood cross grain, you gain overall strength - in some ways- but you lose some of the properties of stiffness. Cross lapped laminates (plywood) is much more flexible than parallel lapped. And parallel laminated woods are stronger than the same solid woods. It's because the wood grain doesn't run through the wood but is variable in spite of the fact that the grain generally follows the same direction. And by alternating the ring pattern in alternating layers you also even out the way the wood wants to move which makes the glued up piece very stabile. A properly made laminated stock can be a very practical, and arguably pleasing way to stock a rifle.

A laminate stock (or walnut I suppose) is far, far quieter than fiberglass or plastic when branches are rubbing against the stock... the butt in particular is a noisy area in a plastic or glass stock.

Can't say my only fiberglass stock (Kimber) smells, but plastic ones usually do, especially the first couple years.

While stainless will rust, that just is what it is. I'm not taking my main rifle out of it's stock in hunting season anyway, so.... The reason I sleep easy with my (laminate) M7 leaned up in the corner by the woodstove is that I know the stock isn't going to warp, split, twist, or whatever... the POI won't move on me.

... let me add, for Klikitarik, that I share his love of the M700 Mountain Rifle stock. I have two, both laminate; one, on a re-barreled 30-06 with a little heavier profile barrel than the MR has... the other is a stock 7-08 M700 LSS. Anyway... I LOVE how that stock feels in the hands!

Only negative is the butt-heavy aspect. On my '06, the heavier barrel takes care of that. On my 7-08, some aggressive drilling of material out of the butt cured it.

Blaine
Stock laminates are run in the same direction mostly for looks. Plywood will never make a decent-looking stock. There are some plywoods with laminates arranged at various angles, but mostly pointed in the same general direction. They still look very ugly IMO.

Growth ring instabilities mentioned by Klik are really a non-issue with quality laminations. Juvenile wood from near the center of trees has the issues he mentions and in plywood mills it is a real concern, but stock laminates are not made from that type of lamination.

For your use in bench guns the weight is critical and laminates geared toward strength have enough resin injected under pressure to add enough weight to eliminate them as an option for you.

Wood is anything but consistent in each direction... In endgrain compression wood is really strong. In long grain tension it is ridiculously strong. Cross grain tension and compression is not great though. If you need strength in those directions it may not be there.
art

Klik
"And parallel laminated woods are stronger than the same solid woods."

Apples to oranges... Adding the glue adds tremendous weight to the wood. Pick a wood with specific gravity equal to the laminate and reasonable fiber length and the laminate will lose again...
art

I'll take Walnut every day over laminated stocks.
A well figured Walnut stock is a thing of beauty, where-as a laminate is lifeless, fugly, lacking character.

Cedar sideing vs. manufactured clapboards - Your choice. There is no substitute for real wood.

'nuff said.......



Ya sure can't get a nice as straight, recoil split with walnut.......

I have seen a laminate on the mighty, heavy recoiling 308 split.Most are pretty ugly,and I like fir plywood.But I picked up a Boyds laminate that they do for the Remington M-798,it ain't too bad looking.I do have nice blank waiting for some projects to get finished.

huntsman - just wondering - did the factory replace that split stock?

Nah, they had to replace the whole gun........

looks like a ruger mk2. did anything else "split" besides the stock?

SD,
Strength does favor the grain variations in a laminate since the grain, while generally parallel, is still going to run at varied biases in adjoining sheets - assuming the laminates aren't sliced from a flitch and layered in order. You are probably correct about the juvenile wood detail though since most wood used in gunstock laminates is probably rotary sliced and doesn't include the center of the log.

As for what is beautiful, that is so very subjective in nature as to be impossible to define. Certainly, in my view anyway, some expensive and beautiful solid stock blanks become so gaudy in their finished form as to be ugly, though they may exhibit high levels of technical craftsmanship. And some people even rave about resin and cloth stocks which aren't even remotely attractive to my eye. So we all have to decide and live with those choices - if we care.

Yeah, they said it was an 'over-pressure' situation......

blew the bolt stop spring...


the extractor and band went flying...


Bottom metal was bowed a little...



The end of the case was kinda blown...


Company policy was to not let the rifle back out their door....

One of those hotshot new Gizmo cartridges (204) ruining a gun Kidding.

Art, I was on the college Karate team, that demo was ok, but the guy did miss that last board a few times.

I only broke one board in my life, the instructors son had a leftover board after a demo in a mall, and I wanted to break one just because I never had before, so I did. Board breaking is a stunt, no real karate skill needed, but follow through with a strong technique is ...just to say that some can break boards w/o karate skill.

The most impressive was a club member black belt, I believe it was 6 people total holding the boards he broke (4 behind the two w/hands on - to back up). 5 boards in total, all together, about all any of the holders could get their hands around. The black belt did a side thrust kick and I was stunned when he broke all 5 on the first try, it was a solid SNAP. It was as much a feat for him, as it was for those who held those 5 boards rigid enough to take the impact w/o absorbing the impact which would disallow breakage, but holding tight against the force needed to break them. That was one strong kick let me tell you.

I like the benefits of a lam stock, and its looks if done right compared to lackluster wood. BUT, they usually are heavy. Money aside, properly cured quality wood is all the more pleasing to the eye and should be fine afield esp. when sealed well.

Not sure if they are still made but a friend had several Sako customs, armor alloy action coating w/ synthetics that looked like wood. They looked nice and were functional. McMillan Fibergrain comes to mind....

I still like nice wood, Don you always have some nice ones to show. My father's fancy walnut model 12s always mesmerized me.

I always wondered, just how does one know if a blank is 'properly cured' other than the trust of who you get it from? Really. Can you determine how well it's dried naturally? There must be some equipment that can measure moisture per above specs.

Walnut.