Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Of Lever Rifles

Just to add a little information about the 1:38 twist ... as it regards Marlins, only older 444's have that twist rate. Newer and current production 444 Marlins have 1:20 twist. I don't recall the year Marlin switched from 1:38 microgroove rifling to 1:20 ballard rifling though ... also, since the 444 drives bullets faster, it stabilizes them better than the 44 mag at the 1:38 twist rate.

I have owned a shot just about all of the leverguns mentioned here as well. My general observations on each are as follows.

Winchester 94 - Light, trim and well balanced. The older ones are very well put together. Many made in the 70s and 80s are pure junk. Even the old ones have too much slop in the action to suit me. Most I have owned have been accurate enough

Winchester-Browning 92 - The slickest levergun I know of. They are extremely light and handy, but very expensive for the originals and Miroku clones. The Rossi, EMF, etc 92 clones can be made into very serviceable deer rifles, but are often quite rough from the factory.

Winchester/Browning 1886/71 - Same action, different stock and chambering. Strongest levergun design out there. The action is pure butter when broken in. Even the lightest ones are pretty heavy for a general use hunting rifle. The originals are too expensive for most of us to even think about hunting with and the reproductions have starting prices in the 1K range.

Winchester 88 - Well balanced, chambered in 284 and other longer range cartridges. Bigger and heavier than I would like and the triggers on the three I have owned ranged from heavy to awful. One early 308 I had was very accurate though. They have a very smooth action.

Marlin 336 - A little heavier than the Winchester, but much more user friendly and chambered in the excellent 35 Rem which the Winchester is not. The older ones are smooth as glass, the newer ones a more hit and miss on the quality. I have had several that were sub MOA shooters. A great value for the money

Marlin 1895 - Working man's 45-70. They are great big bore rifles for the money. Easy to scope or mount a receiver sight. Usually quite accurate. I especially like the 1970s versions with the 22" barrel and straight stock.

Marlin 1894 - Working man's pistol cartridge carbine. They are almost as light and handy as the 92s, but much more user friendly with regard to scopes, reciever sights and takedown. The older ones seem to have better fit and finish than the newer ones on average. I have had several that were very accurate. The used ones are a great value for the money.

Browning BLR - Extremely smooth with wonderful fit and finish (too shiny and fancy for a hunting rifle in my opinion). Chambered in just about all of the popular long range cartridges. The short actions are great, the long actions seem very awkward to operate to me. They do not have the feel of a levergun to me and the whole trigger assembly moving with the lever does not seem natural. The ones I have had very accurate though.

Savage 99 - The action takes some getting used to, but is very fast once you get the motion down. Some of the newer ones with the pressed checkering, no cartridge counter etc are near junk, but not as bad as the Winchester 94s of the same vintage. The older premillion rifles are very well made and wonderfully balanced. Anyone who thinks a 99 is not well balanced should handle and 99EG with a receiver sight or a 99F with a compact scope. The lever safety is a bit awkward to use. I have had several that were very accurate. As a pure hunting rifle, it is hard to beat a 1950s 99F in 300 Savage or 308.

re:Gringoloco
appreciate the update on Marlin's 444-my brother-in-law bought one of the first of them, they loaded the first 444's with pistol bullets-I think it was a gimmick to get the muzzle velocity to be impressive-had a house full of guns at the time-one of my favorites was a348 Winchester-he was very depressed when I showed him the downrange ballistics the 348 was already outrunning him at 100 yds., at 200 yds. comparing the 444 to the 348 is a joke.

I liked them too, gave my son one in 300 Savage; he keeps it more as an heirloom.

I had an "original" 444 Marlin for years, probably late 60s/early 70s production? I got it used in the late 70s. 24" barrel, big clunky butt stock.

It shot very well with factory 240gr loads. Even better with 200gr jacketed HP pistol bullets (Speers and XTPs) and 47grs of IMR 4198. Two touching, third shot within an 1/8" or less, scoped and rested at 100 yards, although I mostly used it with a Williams "peep".

Never saw any reason to stoke it with heavier bullets, as it killed every whitetail I ever fired it at, with 200gr bullets.

Also made some impressive exit holes on broadside shots, generally resulting in the deer on the ground where it had been, when the Marlin went bang.

redubePA
When I wrote 444 vs. 348, didn't want to P.O. anybody with a 444-I did not say it wouldn't kill a deer-I was merely expressing an interest in rifling twists, the stabilization of a bullet of a given weight-I dug out an old Hornady reloading manual, the rifle they tested was a 336 24" barrel, 1 in 38" twist, 265gr FP Hornady that they introduced in 1967(the bullet)-max. velocity 2200fps-on the very next page(pp254), 45-70 1886 WIN rifle,barrel 26", 1 in 22", 300gr short jacket max. velocity 1700fps-
If it makes you feel any better, my 348 is a Model 71 24" barrel, 1 in 12" twist, I feel this is the wrong twist for the 348-seems to me that it should have been 1 in 16"-it shoots 150gr into less than 1" at 100 yds.-200gr 2" or so -250gr 3.5" avg.-
The 35 REM, 350 REM MAG and 35 Wheeling are all turned 1 in 16" and I feel that this would be the ultimate twist to stabilize bullets 200gr or better
I cropped deer(illegally) for two different ranchers back in the 60's and killed over 200 deer with the 348, no better deer killer at 200 yds and under have I ever seen. My favorite cal. had always been the REM 7mm mag and 270. I prefer the 7 because of the wide selection of bullets. Hope I haven't offended any gun owners with my blather. I think a man should own as many guns as his wife allows, so I'll give one bit of advice: I tell my wife these guns are like a bank account for her after my demise. As she sees the value of the rifles in closet go up, she keeps encouraging me to buy more!!!

I have a Browning 71 Carbine, but have yet to shoot it ... blasphemy I know . Still lack some components to load her up. I haven't even looked to see what twist it has. I wonder how difficult/feasible it would be to form .348 brass from 45/70 cases.

TBB,

I like your reporting style: what you observed and how you feel. Your love for these grand old rifles comes through as well.

a tip of the hat to you,

Sycamore

Isn't by any chance the Sporting Carbine version, is it? That's what my 35 Rem M336SC is, with "Half magazine". Mine is about that same vintage, never drilled/tapped for scope bases.

Absolutely the smoothest trigger pull I've ever come across in a lever action rifle. It is one slick little package to tote for deer.

No harm, oldgunsmith. Merely chiming-in on the topic of the twist in the original 444 Marlins. Never found the need to load heavier bullets for deer, is all. 200gr pistol bullets killed 'em about as dead as they needed to be.

Scoped it one year for the purpose of seeing how accurate my latest loads were from the bench, hence mention of how they tended to be two bullets cutting each other and the third one right close by. Killed one deer with the scope, went back to a Williams again.

Yes, it is the Sports Carbine, 336SC. It has a Redfield coinslot peep sight.

re:Gringo Loco
if you ever carry that Model 71 into the woods, you'll be ready for anything you find in the woods-even the much dreaded chupacabra!!! The cases for 348 are necked down 50 cal. not 45/70-much bigger at the base-when you throw the action open, the gaping hole of the chamber looks like it will take a 20ga. shotgun shell-it spits those bullets out at about the same velocity as a 30.06 making it the most powerful lever gun with a hammer other than the Model 95 Winchester possibly-I'm very anxious to find out what the twist is in the Browning 71-I don't know if my broken neck would stand the recoil anymore but if the twist is right, I will buy one-good luck on finding ammo-I think I know a source, if they have any, I will let you know

Other than your classy Redfield, as opposed to my sleazy ol' aluminum Williams, that's identical to mine.

"Saved" mine, when I found it in a gunshop some years ago. Figured it had lasted 50 years without someone drilling holes in it, so gave it a good home at a very good price, too. No regrets, it's a sweetheart.

Mine shoots Rem factory 200gr Core Lokts so well, haven't messed around with any handloads for it yet. Hadn't killed a deer w/factory ammo for many years, prior to getting that rifle.

oldgunsmith,

If necessary, I could just stuff a rod down my Browning 71 and determine the twist ... I'm not looking to buy factory ammo. I just wince everytime I figure the price of .348 brass the few times I find it. Ouch!!! Although the rifle wasn't cheap, I didn't pay as much as I see most of them listed for.

Honestly, sometimes I think I have too many choices when season rolls around. I guess I remember when I didn't have choices, and felt the need to rectify it ... with more than a little overlap in calibers .

Incidentally, I saw a thread on the shootersforum (post #43 by 3840wcf) where it was posted that Clements Custom Guns formed 348 from 45/70. See pic below. The greater diameter at the base is the biggest difference I noted in comparing the dimensions of the .348 and the 45/70. The rims are virtually identical. The overall length of the 45/70 is a few hairs short, but might lengthen when worked. I've never taken on any such task, but it's kind of intriguing ... but probably more effort required than just buying 348 brass. Perhaps they fire-formed it ? I note he also states, that it equals the ballistics ... perhaps the case capacity is slightly different, but with similar pressures with worked up loads.


By Clements custom guns. Brass is formed from 45/70 and equals the ballistics of the .348 Winchester

re:/gringo loco
I'll write you tomorrow, but I don't believe thats a true 348-believe its a wildcat based on a 348-its late tonite,take it from an old gunsmith, a 45/70 case necked down to 348 fired in a 348 chamber would rupture at the base every time if I had an address, I would send you some 348 cases

Gringo Loco,

I just bought a BUNCH of 348 cases from Blue Star Brass Company. Great guys and good prices. I needed new brass 'cause the old ammo I had ruptured the cases at the necks when fired in my 348AI chamber. With the AI version I am pushing 250gr Barnes originals at 2500 and 200gr Hornady flat noses at 2750. I am anxious to use these on game this year! My model 71 Deluxe was alreaady AI'ed when I bought it which is why I got it for only $1200 with 348AI dies and 100 pieces of formed ready to shoot ammo. I would not suggest anyone now should AI an original, let alone an early deluxe version..... but a Browning repro? Yeah, baby!

Anyway, you have a nice rifle there and I hope you get to use it on a critter or three this year.

The ammo you show in the photo looks a lot like my AI'ed 348 cases excepting being narrower being based on the 45/70 rather than the 50/70 case. My AI'ed 348's hold GOBS of gunpowder.

I believe you're right oldgunsmith ... when I first saw the difference in diameter of the bases of these cartridge's diagrams, .5530 vs. .5055, I scratched my head and wondered if it's even possible to do. I don't think I would trust it's safety even if it could. That post by 3840wcf never did specify it was for a 71 chambered for 348.

I appreciate the offer for brass, but really couldn't accept. Thanks. Heck, .358 Win brass is getting high too ... guess I'm just a cheapskate . I have plenty of .358 brass though, and it's no trick to make it from 308.

Incidentally, I measured the twist rate for my Browning 71 Carbine. It is 1:12.

Safariman,

The idea of AI'ing the .348 had occurred to me. It certainly is a cartridge that would maximize its worth improved. Maybe some day. Those are impressive numbers you're getting and glad you posted them as I was curious about it.

re:Gringo Loco
Seriously you are welcome to the old cases-need polishing,havejust short of a box-will send a 45/70 case too-you will see how much longer the 348 is-let me know-I am molding bullets on the front porch in the evenings, and since you say you are a cheapskate, cast bullets are the way to go for just plinking at much lower velocities-somebody said the other day that the 348 was a 50/70 necked down, I believe it was the 50/90 possibly- Safariman was right about the punch of the 348- it's not a rifle that you want to shoot from the prone position all day-If he would aneal his brass before he fire forms it, he would suffer much fewer losses from splitting-I had to do this with a 17 Ackley imp. bee-you are going to find that the 150gr bullet is much more accurate than the heavier ones, but only God knows where you can find some-if you are not interested in ever shooting the gun because of the price of ammo, I have a near mint pre 64 30-30 I'll trade you even have a few boxes of shells and dies to go with it, then your worries will be over!!!!-really, it's worth three dollars a shot just to see what you've got-you are going to love that rifle-try cheaper than dirt for 348 WIN 200gr silvertip 20/bx for 60.18-also midwayusa,impactguns,mcgcreek for brass the last one advertises their brass at 26.85 for 50

I like the 94 in .30-30. A classic Savage 99 is also cool.

the 94 carries and comes to shoulder like it is a part of me. Not got the durability of the 99 or the 336, but absolutely dependable if you work the action aggresively. I have an old pre 64 model 94 given me by a friend a couple years after I had to sell my 1898 94 to buy milk for the kids. That is a pretty good friend.
Randy

I'll manage oldgunsmith. Thanks for the additional sources. As much as I'd like to have a pre-64 30-30, I'll hang onto my 71 . I didn't pick it up for a song, but I did pay a fair bit less than a G for it. It has some minor blemishes. I really like it.

A thought though ... if you get yourself another 71, how hard would it be to re-barrel it to a different twist ... if that's what you want. Being a gunsmith, that's probably no great trick for you. Caveat though, an article I read noted that the Winchester 71 barrel threads are different from the Browning repro's. And further noted that the Browning barrel was screwed on really tight.

Here is a link to that Article: Browning 71 - Leverguns.com