I don't care about winning, at this point. I am just here to learn. Thanks for the info. I am not interested in bench rest shooting except to check loads and equipment.
I don't care about winning, at this point. I am just here to learn. Thanks for the info. I am not interested in bench rest shooting except to check loads and equipment.
come on lee24, you already told us you were a 'superior rifle shooter' (your words),what's this about wanting to learn? you gonna shoot the match in december at ben avery range or what?
or just tell me what palma team you participated on (and pulling targets or working the radio in the pits don't count)
I don't care about winning, at this point. I am just here to learn. Thanks for the info. I am not interested in bench rest shooting except to check loads and equipment.
come on lee24, you already told us you were a 'superior rifle shooter' (your words),what's this about wanting to learn? you gonna shoot the match in december at ben avery range or what?
or just tell me what palma team you participated on (and pulling targets or working the radio in the pits don't count)
wmeek,
As you can see, another of Lee24's specialties is answering questions with questions. Don't hold your breath for the name of his Palma team or any other useful info that might allow people to track him down.......because realistically, people would be proud to provide details of what they actually know, especially if they are part of a rifle team.
So, tell me about your rifle. How about some pictures?
How many competitors show up to your matches in AZ? What are the usual top 5 scores? Any links to a website?
don't have any pic - ain't nothin' to look at. but, an old, slightly pitted 40x, 1985 obermeyer barrel, dropped into an anschutz 1411 prone stock with jb weld oozing all over, canjar trigger, warner rear sight, anschutz front.
i'd guess 120-150 competitors.
448 would probably make top 5 unless it got really windy, then a 435 might be a keeper.
I used to shoot an Anschutz 1411 prone rifle as a companion to my 1413, indoor 50 meters and outdoor 100 meters. Great stocks, with tons of adjustment and accessories, and super sights.
I used to shoot an Anschutz 1411 prone rifle as a companion to my 1413, indoor 50 meters and outdoor 100 meters. Great stocks, with tons of adjustment and accessories, and super sights.
that's nice, but are you gonna shoot???
supply the info and i'll have a program sent to you
Originally Posted by wmeek
Originally Posted by Lee24
Are you doing any Palma match shooting right now? Maybe I could come shoot against you. Start a thread and post the schedule.
how 'bout the arizona state palma champ's - december 4-6, 2009, give you time to practice... (me too, as i haven't shot in awhile). but the question remains: which team were you on?? details.
Anyone messing around with, or thinking of, shooting Palma matches
I would be a wanna be and one "messing with" and "thinking of". Me knuckle dragging Service Rifle shooter. Me have old man eyes now. Need sights farther from eye.
I'm not "in" the game, but I do know that AZ is one of the hotbeds of Long Range Prone. I'm curious what Olympic Champions you've pulled butts with? I know a few, but not many shoot High Power or Palma.
wmeek, you be the "B-man"? If yes, you still need a haircut. I suspect wmeek can call more than a few of those "olympic champions" team mates from a prior life. Maybe you two have already shared a range without know it?
The Southwest has more places to set up and run a 1,000 yard rifle range. Likewise the upper plains like the Dakotas and Minnesota.
In the East and South, it is too hilly or too populated to have many ranges beyond 600 meters.
I have 1,100 meters in a pasture behind the house, but can't use it anymore because of a house built beyond it, and too many horses that I don't know about. So I have to drive to a 600 yard range if I want to shoot long.
The Southwest has more places to set up and run a 1,000 yard rifle range. Likewise the upper plains like the Dakotas and Minnesota.
In the East and South, it is too hilly or too populated to have many ranges beyond 600 meters.
I have 1,100 meters in a pasture behind the house, but can't use it anymore because of a house built beyond it, and too many horses that I don't know about. So I have to drive to a 600 yard range if I want to shoot long.
You just never stop do you?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
The Southwest has more places to set up and run a 1,000 yard rifle range. Likewise the upper plains like the Dakotas and Minnesota.
In the East and South, it is too hilly or too populated to have many ranges beyond 600 meters.
I have 1,100 meters in a pasture behind the house, but can't use it anymore because of a house built beyond it, and too many horses that I don't know about. So I have to drive to a 600 yard range if I want to shoot long.
that's nice, but as i asked before: you gonna shoot or what?
Originally Posted by wmeek
Originally Posted by Lee24
Are you doing any Palma match shooting right now? Maybe I could come shoot against you. Start a thread and post the schedule.
how 'bout the arizona state palma champ's - december 4-6, 2009, give you time to practice... (me too, as i haven't shot in awhile). but the question remains: which team were you on?? details.
a simple yes or no will suffice, remember however you made the original offer to shoot against me, i'm just trying to facilitate your request.
I'm very involved with shooting Palma and Full-bore. I'm currently a member of the US Veterans team and will be trying for the US Palma team this coming November. Either way I'll be heading to Brisbane, AU in 2011 to shoot for the US. Any particular question you have in mind? Blair
Hey Bill P! Long time no chat! Just making the Olympic Team is a huge accomplishment. Lee24 mentioned "Olympic Champions" which is far rarer company. BTW, I ran across a Rifleman issue from the 70's mentioning that guy with the funny looking prone winning his age division in High Power as a junior at Camp Perry! Funny thing...I think Bernosky won that year...just like he won last year and almost won this year!
Are you shooting SR or belly slithering these days?
Not Palma competition, but shot a Palma legal rifle in NRA highpower competition for a few years. Learned a lot shooting with the likes of Solis, Cloward, Rasmussen and others who have done the Palma competition.
Interesting, slinging a stubby 155 grain .30 cal bullet at long range...
Hey Rasmussen was our Team USA F TR Coach. What a great guy and source to have. Learned tons from him. Solis shoots Palma while I shoot on the F TR Target. He is great shot as well. Cloward is a Hall of Fame type. Jim Oconnel is still as great as ever. We are lucky out here to have them
Hey Chris-- good to see the posts.. got the message, got an infection about the time we got back from AK, now its pneumonia, I'll call one day when I'm up to talking if I don't loose the number again..
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I think Clowdis has the floor. You coming to March Madness? Mike Miller (Just some F TR Guy) _________________________ Mike www.tacticalintervention.com
Good morning Mike, Sorry, been away for a few days due to the passing of my mother in law. I do know Bud Solis very well, shot with him on the Veterans Team in 2007.I think Bud will be going with us to Brisbane in 2011 too. He is a real competitor and drives himself pretty hard. Also know Gary Rasmussen. I did shoot in the Can-Am full bore matches during March Madness in 2007 but California is a long way from North Carolina so I don't get there often. By the way, good job by the F-TR team in Bisley! Jeff Rorer is a good friend of mine too.
Written words mean very little, it's the target that does the real talking.
I like to write and I truly enjoy writing about stuff that I like to do. I've had dozens of technical articles published in journals and magazines over the years, all but one in technical journals and magazines that you would not know.
When it comes to F-T/R shooting, I had to learn all by myself, there was no one there to ask questions, all the guys were into F-Open and there are many differences. My experiences as a old Palma shooter (in the early 1980s) and more recently in Service Rifle were my most important sources of information. So, I am happy to share my experiences and findings with everyone in the hope their journey will be swifter and to generate more shooters whose butts I can kick. :-)
But seriously, I just do not have the time to really get to the level I would like to be. Sure, I won matches and placed decently sometimes, but LR F-T/R is very difficult and needs more of a commitment than I can give it. I shoot 1000 yards only once a month and it will take all I can give to even get to TSRA this year, and it's in my backyard.
I have been promising myself to get to the Nationals for a couple years now and I was really thinking of showing up at Butner, but that's not happening. As for showing up for the 2010 Nationals in Kalifornia, that will require more guts than I may be able to muster to bring my rifle(s) into that "state." I don't want to lose them. (Sorry, I'm from Texas, we hear horror stories coming from occupied Kalifornia.) We shall see.
F TR based on your written work I guess our average is way below you.
Mike, I don't place myself above anybody and didn't mean to infer that I do. Sorry if that is the message that came across. It's just that I have been around shooting for a lot of years and have gone places and done things during those years that a person could not do in just 5 or 10 years. Read..."not a spring chicken here". God has granted me the eyesight and enough natural ability to become a decent shooter and I've done the best I can to take advantage of that. As for 2010 schedules I'm not sure yet as the team hasn't set anything. The preperation for the 2007 team had us shooting at the Can-Am matches in Sacremento, Phoenix (twice), and the SOA in Raton. A lot of travel, but in these travels I got to shoot at several great ranges and meet a lot of great people who I will always refer to as friends. I know ya'll did the the same things with the F-class teams and I hope you enjoyed your times with them as much as I have enjoyed my times with the Veterans Team.
Clowdis, you come off as most of the top level Palma Shooters do. First Class all the way. Sorry if my joke to F TR Shooter came off wrong. It was actually a compliment to him as well. He writes very well. He obviously knows what he is talking about, even if he is still stuck on the 223. LOL
F TR I know how you feel but my family moved here from Texas before I was born (Thats a real long time ago). I have been to Texas many times and like parts of it very much, but California is a great place in spite of its stupid politics. Give it a chance you will find most of pretty decent folks. The matches are ran well.
I will say this my F TR shooting is far better after being exposed to the top F TR Shooters and learning from them.
TI, I got your joke, I'm a little sad that clowdis may have seen it otherwise. I absolutely took it as meant, tongue in cheek, so to speak. We can talk and praise each other all we want here, it's fine.
I appreciate your kind words on my prose.
Just so you know, I am now using a .308 for LR and on my third outing I set a new club and range record at 1000 yards, 194-5X. I am really enjoying that rifle.
I reached Sharpshooter at LR F-class with my AR-15 in .223. Now I am looking for Master. (A good goal.)
I have spent more time in California for work over the last 30+ years but now, I don't have to go there anymore. Well, for right now anyway.
And yes, competition brings out the best in people. Which is why I like to compete against the F-openers. Remember, we are not supposed to beat them and they really hate it when it happens. :-)
MA in FTR has to be about the hardest, when one considers the rifle limitations and the target limitations combined. I"d be happy with it if I ever play the game.
Texas ain't all its cracked up to be.. way too hot and humid for my tastes. But plenty of ranges, matches, decent firearms laws etc....
The most underestimated thing in shooting is good competition... Its SO funny to watch, IE when I was shooting service rifle a lot, if no one "good" showed up, I was liable to shoot a 775 or 780 in a local match. Yet have the top folks show up I would still usually win, but often times shoot a 790 or hair more and then just barely win.... Funny how it takes that to push you sometimes... I suspect the human can be typically lazy but still be capable of rising to the occassion. Of course that could be survival too... Dont' wear yourself out more than you have to.... Sorry I digress.
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Boy, got all screwed up on that one! My apologies! I have to agree with the comment that shooting against the best competition will make you a better shooter. At least it seems to get me more focused on the job at hand. All of us have a good match or two somewhere in our head, it's just awfully hard to get it out sometimes. It takes focus and shooting against someone who is at least as good as you will make you try harder. Like Denys, when you beat them it gives you a sense of accomplishment while it might make them wonder a bit. Blair
We all have a few good matches in our head is right.. when it flows fine and smooth, almost regardless of the conditions, and you are in the zone so to speak....
Damn thing is being able to access them on demand....
Standing always killed me... though I know I can shoot it well enough to win nationals, I never could at nationals, and actually rarely well enough to set records type.... I could win locally though, but it was because I could shoot the rest of the course clean or really close most days....
And remember on getting screwed up, keyboards ain't face to face and it gets screwed up at times.... we've all been there.... Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Well, when I go off to a important (to me) match I post somewhere here that I'm off. Might as well post here. This weekend 9/19-20 is the Racine County Line Rifle Club 600 Yard Mid-Range Regional Tournament. NRA Registered. Two day match. Prone, four gun, Match Rifle, Service Rifle, Palma, & F-Class. I shot this match last year, day one only. It was the first time I shot F-TR. Only had a 10x scope that day. Learned a bunch! Including that match and the others I've shot (all 600 yard matches) this year my NRA classification card reads "F-Class Mid-Range Expert" as of 7/25/2009. Pretty damn happy about that. Looks to be good weather for Sat., could be rain on Sun. I've learned a bit about what to do with mirage this summer, hope to use that knowledge this weekend. Here is a link to the Racine program 2009_Match_Programs/090919-20_Racine.pdf
always wanted to shoot at Racine because I have good friends that live there.... never have made it though...if only I'd have been shooting already when I was in taxidermy school in Janesville, then I'd have made it a point too..
Good luck!
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
My NRA F-Class Mid-Range is still Master as on 8/19/2008, but I have not had the chance to put in another High-Master level score for several months now. After my scope screw up at Mid-Range TSRA I sort of concentrated on LR. Getting my Sharpshooter (4/27/2009) in LR was more of an achievement for me than Master in MR, because it was so damn difficult with a .223.
So, again, good luck to you, our thoughts are with you and get yourself some Master scores this weekend.
F TR Shooting like that a bunch of us will be glad you stayed in Texas. Thats damm fine shooting.
I think making Master in F TR s the hardest of all the shooting sports. My opinion no one roast me for it.
Thanks. For some strange reason I was just started off shooting great that day which was really weird because I was so tired. I work way too much and travel way to frequently, and I thought I was going to fall asleep or really screw up on the line. But the rifle was shooting superbly and the load is just terrific. At the end of the first 10 shots for record, I was down only 2 and I just tried to stay focused. I lost two more points just towards the end but finished strong with a perfect X. I was pumped. But at the pit change, I got tired and hot and really had a tough time on the second match, 185-2 (I know, pitiful). I was feeling pretty bad but did the pit thing again and tried to calm down. I wanted to get into the 190s again on the third match but only managed a 189-3. That's Expert score for a total, but the first match showed me that I could do better.
I'm not going to roast you or disagree with you on your statement. I happen to agree.
Well, when I go off to a important (to me) match I post somewhere here that I'm off. Might as well post here. This weekend 9/19-20 is the Racine County Line Rifle Club 600 Yard Mid-Range Regional Tournament. NRA Registered. Two day match. Prone, four gun, Match Rifle, Service Rifle, Palma, & F-Class. I shot this match last year, day one only. It was the first time I shot F-TR. Only had a 10x scope that day. Learned a bunch! Including that match and the others I've shot (all 600 yard matches) this year my NRA classification card reads "F-Class Mid-Range Expert" as of 7/25/2009. Pretty damn happy about that. Looks to be good weather for Sat., could be rain on Sun. I've learned a bit about what to do with mirage this summer, hope to use that knowledge this weekend. Here is a link to the Racine program 2009_Match_Programs/090919-20_Racine.pdf
Good weekend to all, Pat
Well, placed 4th overall. Three points away from the podium. Oh well. Due to the small number of F-Class entrants both F-Open & F-TR were combined to shoot for the championship. Two of this states top F-Open shooters, Earl & Karen Liebetrau, took 1st & 2nd. Myself and Dave Z. (both F-TR shooters)had a great challenge against each other. On Sat. I had a good lead going into the fourth match. I fell apart in the fourth, lots of boiling mirage that I handled badly. On this day the wind was minimal in the morning, increasing to a steady 10mph or so from the SE. Wind was not an issue, mirage is a devil! Ended Sat six points behind Dave.
Sunday dawned with wind, 5mph or so, SE direction. Increased thruout the day to steady 12-14mph or so. Again, wind was manageable, mirage again became an issue in the fourth match for me. After three matches I'm ahead of Dave, but, going into forth match I knew I had to shoot at least 190 or better to capture 3rd place (3rd looser?). Dave had shot all four matches by this point. I did not manage mirage well, shot a 187-5x.
Good to see that Earl L is still out there shooting. Last time I shared a range with him, he was shooting a 300WinMag Prone! What's he shooting for F-Class these days? Hopefully something a little less punishing.
Also, hey, thanks guys for the kind words. This was my first year in f-class. Prior to this the longest I've shot was 200 yards with hunting rifles. Steep learning curve. I sure enjoy this discipline. Sign me F-Class Lifer, and forever a student of mirage, lol.
btw, Earl's home club is near Lodi, Wi. He says he's putting together a wind/mirage workshop with some other long range shooting heavies. Should be held before memorial day 2010 at the Winnequah club (site of the 2008 F-Class Nationals). That's the club where I'll get my feet wet at 1000 yards. Am soooo looking forward to it!
It's been interesting reading all this to see how this event has changed, but I am not going to take the time to build a new Palma rifle, since I have no nearby place to shoot it anymore, few matches nearby, and would have to recruit some more shooters for a team. If I want to compete again, I'll go back to pistol. Much easier to train and compete.
At least I know where the matches are, found the schedules, and could attend one if I am in the area.
I am not going to take the time to build a new Palma rifle. At least I know where the matches are, found the schedules, and could attend one if I am in the area.
lee24, good to see you back. don't need a new rifle, use your old one, that's what i do (it's the same for 25 years). and you do have the schedule, good. gonna come shoot, or were you just blowin' hot air when you made the offer to 'shoot against' me. and what happened to you being a superior rifle shooter? just explain to me what happened and why you no longer want to shoot.....
I no longer have my .308, just a .30-06 single shot with a 30-inch barrel and Redfield International sights.
Shooting just prone is boring, but not as bad as off the bench. I like 3 and 4 position, like 50 and 100 meter .22 rimfire, or 300 yard matches, or running boar. Don't have time to shoot any of them these days.
I no longer have my .308, just a .30-06 single shot with a 30-inch barrel and Redfield International sights.
Shooting just prone is boring, but not as bad as off the bench. I like 3 and 4 position, like 50 and 100 meter .22 rimfire, or 300 yard matches, or running boar. Don't have time to shoot any of them these days.
lee24,
you were the one that challenged me to a shoot! now you're wimping out because you don't have time? what up wit dat, G????? i was even putting some ammo together! if your superior shooting skills would prefer smallbore, i'm up for that too! i could even come your direction, so long as you bring out the "sc fn .375h&h"
"Shooting just prone is boring, but not as bad as off the bench. I like 3 and 4 position, like 50 and 100 meter .22 rimfire, or 300 yard matches, or running boar. Don't have time to shoot any of them these days." Lee said
Brother not into pissing contests over who has biggest what ever but anyone who ever said shooting Palma Prone is "Boring" has not done it much. Sure its easy to judge a 2mph wind change at 1000 yards if your God or dreaming/asleep but for the rest of us awake mortals its a heck of a challenge.
wmeek, I didn't challenge you or anyone else to shoot. I've shot against the best in six different disciplines. I just asked where you shot and what kind of scores are typical. Sorry to bust your bubble.
I don't mean to offend any of the Palma junkies. It's not my passion. Just a matter of taste. I also don't like McMillan stocks or Barnes bullets, and that makes other people hopping mad. Tough nookies. It's just a matter of taste. They would be bored shooting 60 shots slow fire air pistol or free pistol, which I can do every day of the week. I have competed in various international rapid fire pistol events, but don't care for IPSC with all the tricked out race guns.
Don't bother to get off the Palma topic and turn this into a chest beating session where you ask some of the class clowns to help you with insults, because I won't be responding to any of that stupidity.
wmeek, I didn't challenge you or anyone else to shoot. I've shot against the best in six different disciplines. I just asked where you shot and what kind of scores are typical. Sorry to bust your bubble.
I don't mean to offend any of the Palma junkies. It's not my passion. Just a matter of taste. I also don't like McMillan stocks or Barnes bullets, and that makes other people hopping mad. Tough nookies. It's just a matter of taste. They would be bored shooting 60 shots slow fire air pistol or free pistol, which I can do every day of the week. I have competed in various international rapid fire pistol events, but don't care for IPSC with all the tricked out race guns.
Don't bother to get off the Palma topic and turn this into a chest beating session where you ask some of the class clowns to help you with insults, because I won't be responding to any of that stupidity.
Now, back to Palma discussion.
Interesting to see that not all palma rifles wear MC stocks, NO one shoots barnes bullets in palma. In fact my closest "palma" rifle at this point is an AR15 Service rifle that placed 3rd in our state palma matches against the bolt gunners.... I like shooting all the events you've mentioned. FWIW its easy to shoot against the best in almost any competition, now HOW you do is totally different story wise...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
wmeek, I didn't challenge you or anyone else to shoot. I've shot against the best in six different disciplines. I just asked where you shot and what kind of scores are typical. Sorry to bust your bubble.
lee24,
au contraire mon ami. couple months ago in another thread:
Originally Posted by Lee24
Are you doing any Palma match shooting right now? Maybe I could come shoot against you. Start a thread and post the schedule.
and just minutes ago:
Originally Posted by Lee24
If he qualifies for one of the same events I decide to shoot in, then he will get to shoot against me. Same for you, hotshot.
and my replies:
Originally Posted by wmeek
Originally Posted by Lee24
If he qualifies for one of the same events I decide to shoot in, then he will get to shoot against me. Same for you, hotshot.
lee24,
how quickly we forget? you challenged me at long range high power (ie palma), you announced you were a superior rifle shooter (your exact words), i'm just trying to accomodate your challenge...... why are you now backpedaling and trying to change what you originally said??
Originally Posted by wmeek
Originally Posted by Lee24
If he qualifies for one of the same events I decide to shoot in, then he will get to shoot against me. Same for you, hotshot.
lee24,
you also implied that you were a member of the usamu international rifle team when you told me that fort benning supplied you with an isu rifle and ammunition. so if you would rather a different rifle event i would understand, and gladly accomodate that challenge - maybe we could sell tickets!!
Nice range! The electric targets took some getting used to, seems like I had to wait forever for the target to cycle. I was stuck on the big end for day #3. The light SW wind killed us. We we're scoring in the 130's, those on the small end were shooting mid 140's. Met some great folks down there!!!!
Hey Lee24, I shoot a little bit of 10M Air Pistol. I haven't been able to find many matches outside of sectionals. Are there many matches in your area?
So do you think Lee speaks Russian in French too? I have to laugh every time I see that commerical.
I know Lee has mentioned several times he has been in the San Francisco bay area for work. Im sure he can come out to Sacramento and show his abilities. They have something every weekend ranging from tactical steel, 1000 bullseye and almost everything in between. Im sure it will be a challenge for any shooter.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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