Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire This should make some people here proud

Wow, after reading that, I�m really sorry I responded to your first post. It�s clear to me now that you really don�t have the first hint of understanding of either side of the issue. But rather you stuff magnum loads of unfounded opinion in your six-shooter, wade in and start blasting away.

That's a good point. Science and religion are different ways of "knowing" the world around you. In some cases thay agree and in others their ideas are opposed.

What OK has done is wrong. It's like giving a cooking recipe for a history test answer.

For some, science IS a religion. It's then a pseudo-science, IMO. And because science sometimes conflicts with religious beliefs, some in the faith camp discount a lot of scientific findings that they should not.

Trust me, I use math everyday and Algebra in its basic form, along with Geometry, Trig, and the basics of add, subtract, etc. are the basis of our world.
Once you step above that level of math, less than 1%, which is being generous, is going to make use of it in the real world.
Saving that type of curriculum for college is better suited, though most school systems will push the advanced Alegbra before they'll teach the kids Trig. Very assbackwards IMO.

Math is everything and the language of all, but timing on exposure can have a lot to do with the ability for children to absorb it. Not only that, but teachers rarely are able to provide real world uses for it, so it goes in one ear and out the other.

Kevin,

Nice post.

The problem is, the Christians hold the majority in our country by a long shot. It's for just that reason that a classroom needs to be secular. It's simply unworkable to think that it's possible to teach, say, biology or science if 2/3 of the class can just basically spout whatever their Bible says on the subject and get an "A"! Right? What's the point of even having the class?

The fact is that evolution is a darn decent theory; a darned decent explanation for what we know scientifically. It is worth presenting as such- the best theory we have for the FACTS at hand.

All of the various religions have their ideas about how it all started, but, they are just made-up fantasies based on nothing. Nothing! How do you teach that? On what grounds? I mean hey, teach it in church all you want; I don't care. But how is a teacher supposed to stand there in science class and teach about the history of the world AND include how every religion thinks it happened? For one thing, they are completely contradictory. That's on top of being completely unsupported by reality.

I need to get to work but someone who is getting PAID to sit here dinking around on the internet, and you know most of you are, please go Google up all the various Creation myths of all the religions and present them here. It'll be a hoot.

OK, so there are fanatical scientists.

More to the point though... for some, religion IS a science.

A fanatic scientist is still peer-reviewed and must present facts and evidence to back things up, or they aren't a scientist very long.

A religious fanatic does not suffer that indignity. That's the problem here.

It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist.

Prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (blessed be his noodley appendage) does not exist.

We see evolution in mid-stream all over the place. Why do whales have a femur and pelvis? Why do humans have muscles that are only useful for walking on all fours? Why do we have a erector pilli? A coccyx? Wisdom teeth?

Tod, I understand the theory, and yes, like all children, was forced to learn it in school.

It is however a theory no more plausible than genesis.

Have I ruled it out? No, but with the average human using only about 30% of their brain capacity, and liberals using less, I doubt they've got all the answers yet.

Science has yet to disprove the bible, but it certainly has changed the way people should be interpreting it.
This kind of gets back to Ken's theory on Fact vs. Opinion. When does it cease to be a fact and becomes an opinion and how much evidence must one be exposed to in order to realize that something is indeed fact?

Nope, sorry.

It's just a simple fact that Matt cannot show us a God, nor can you or anyone else.

A scientist CAN show us a fossil.

One is a reality, the other is a philosophy.

And, humans are nothing if not wishful thinkers when it comes to wanting some sort of afterlife. We take great comfort in the idea that there is some sort of order, some sort of guide, some sort of map, some sort of SOMETHING. There may be- I don't know, neither do you. But it's not a provable, physical reality. It's not something that can be shown. You can believe it, you can love it, you can follow it's guidelines all you want- have at it man!

Just don't attempt to teach it in a Science class in a publically-funded classroom, and I have no beef with it. Keep it in the realm of what it is- faith.

By the way, I have my religious beliefs; I'm not immune to the wonder of the world.

FACTS which by your own admission, you really know nothing of. Seems to me your foundation in evolution is based more on faith.

But even FACTS to the contrary of evolution are not welcome in the US classroom; what do you say about that?

Indian Creation myths:

Indian Creation Myths


"The Day 1



The Crow, who now reigns from the top of the totem of the Haida nation, was the grandson of the Great Holy Chief who made the world.
When the crow cried, asking for the moon that hung from the wall of logs, his grandfather gave it to him. The crow threw it at the sky through the chimney hole; and again he cried, claiming the stars. When he got them, he distributed them around the moon.
Then he cried and kicked and screamed until his grandfather gave him the wrought wooden box in which he kept the light of day. The Great Holy Chief forbade him to take the box out of the house. He had decided that the world would live in darkness.
The crow played with the box, pretending to be inattentive, but observing from the corner of his eye the guardians who were watching him.
Taking advantage of a moment of carelessness, he escaped with the box in his beak. The tip of his beak broke as he passed through the chimney and his feathers were burnt, and stayed black forever.
The crow arrived at the islands off the coast of Canada. He heard human voices and asked for food. They refused him. He threatened to break open the wooden box:
�If the day escapes, which I hold here, the sky will never be turned off,� he warned. No one will be able to sleep, or keep secrets, and it will be known who are people, who is a bird and who is a beast of the forest.�
They laughed. The crow broke the box and the light erupted in the universe.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Night 2




The sun never stopped shining and the Cashinahua Indians didn�t know the sweetness of rest.
Needing peace, exhausted by so much light, they asked the mouse to lend them the night.
It became dark, but the mouse�s night only lasted long enough to eat and smoke a while in front of the fire. Dawn arrived just as the Indians got comfortable in their hammocks.
Then they tried the night of the tapir. With the night of the tapir they were able to sleep soundly and enjoyed the long rest so long desired. But when they woke up so much time had passed that the underbrush of the forest had invaded their crops and squashed their homes.
After much seeking, they kept the night of the armadillo. They took it as a loan and never returned it. The armadillo, dispossessed of the night, sleeps during the day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Stars 3



By playing the flute, love is declared or the return of the hunters is announced. With the sound of the flute the Waiwai Indians invite their guests. For the Tukanos the flute weeps; and for the Kalinas it speaks, because it�s the trumpet that yells.
On the banks of the Rio Negro the flute assures the power of the men. The sacred flutes are hidden, and the woman who shows herself there deserves to die.
In very ancient times, when the women possessed the sacred flutes, the men hauled the wood and the water and prepared the mandioca bread.
The men relate how the sun was indignant to see that the women reigned in the world. The sun came down to the forest and made a virgin pregnant by squeezing the juices of leaves between her legs. Thus was born Jurupari.
Jurupari stole the sacred flutes and gave them to the men. He taught them how to hide them and defend them and to celebrate sacred rituals without women. Also, he told them the secrets they were to transmit to the ears of their sons.
When Jurapari�s mother found the hiding place of the sacred flutes, he condemned her to die; and he made the stars in the sky from her pieces.


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The Milky Way 4



The worm, no bigger that a pinky, ate the hearts of birds. His father was the best hunter of the Mosetenes people.
The worm grew. Soon he was as big as an arm. He demanded more and more hearts. The hunter spent the whole day in the forest killing for his son.
When the serpent no longer fit in the hut, there were no birds left in the forest. The father, with well-aimed arrows, offered him jaguar hearts.
The serpent devoured and grew. There were already no jaguars left in the forest.
�I want human hearts,� the serpent said.
The hunter left his village and neighboring areas without people until one day, in a distant village, they surprised him on the branch of a tree and killed him.
Tormented by hunger and nostalgia, the serpent went looking for him.
He wound his body around the guilty village so nobody could escape. The villagers shot all their arrows at that gigantic ring which had put them under siege. Meanwhile the serpent never ceased to grow.
No one was saved. The serpent rescued its father�s body and grew upwards.
There he is seen, undulating, bristling with luminous arrows, passing through the night."

hindu Creation myths:

"The Hindus believe that a cobra was asleep in the ocean which had drowned the world. The serpent was guarding Vishnu under its coiled body, who lay asleep undisturbed by the silence. While the Lord was resting, he heard the resonance of 'Om', which woke him up. A purple lotus bloomed from Vishnu's navel which became his seat. A school of thought also believes that it was 'Dattatreya' who created the divine trinity of Lord Brahma, Vishnu And Shiva.

'Narad' praised the loyalty of 'Anusuya' towards her husband 'Atri' in front of the wives of the Brahma Vishnu and Shiva. Jealous, the wives asked the gods to challenge her loyalty. So the worshiped trio asked her to dress down and serve food. She agreed and won the challenge. The gods then transformed themselves into babies to be born and raised by the faithful Anusuya.

The world was formed as the divine trinity transcended into 'Avatars' or forms of being. Among the famous avatars known to the Hindu mythology, Vishnu is believed to have ten forms in 'Garuda Purana' and another ten forms in 'Bhagavata Purana'. 'Garuda Purana' is an epilogue of Vishnu's instructions, which he delivered to his carrier 'Garuda',who was the king of birds.

The world came into being through gradual stages, says the Hindu philosophy of 'Yugas' or eras. There are four stages that the cosmos will go through. The first 'Yug' was the 'Satya Yug', wherein the whole world was governed by the Gods, in absolute truth. The world was then an ideal manifestation of mankind. The Satya Yug lasted for 100, 000 years. This era saw the ten avatars of Lord Vishnu. The first form of Vishnu was 'Matsya', the fish, then 'Kruma', the tortoise, then 'Varaha' the boar and the last in this era was the 'Narasimha' who was half man and half lion. A bull named 'Dharma'- which literally means 'the righteous duty' one is born for- stood on four legs in Satya Yug. The next era was the 'Treta Yug' which symbolized perfect morality. This epoch making event in Hindu mythology saw the Vishnu's avatars in 'Vamana', the dwarf, 'Parashurama', Rama with an axe and 'Rama', the King of Ayodhya. The greatest epic of Ramayana was etched in the 'Treta Yug'. The bull, Dharma is shown to be standing on three legs in this era. The third cycle of the universe was the 'Dwapara Yug'. This age was symbolized by the bull standing on its two feet. It is believed that this Yug saw its end when Lord Krishna returned to his eternal home at 'Vaikuntha'. Bhagvan Vishnu took the avatars of 'Balarama' along with his brother 'Krishna'. The fourth 'Yug' known as 'Kali Yug' which translates to the age of vice. According to Hindus the world is presently in the 'Kali Yug'. The death of Krishna marked the beginning of this age. Followers of Hinduism believe that this stage of evolution will degenerate the world spiritually as people are moving away from the God in their mental make up. Thus the bull of morality, Dharma now stands on one leg.

Hindus believe in 'rebirth' or 'punarjanma' as there is an 'atman' or an eternal soul which transcends to another form, in the next life. As per the Hindus only the body dies and decays. The soul lives on forever, in some form or the other. Apparently, the idea of heaven or 'Swarga' and hell 'Narka' originated in the Hindu culture as a result of Western influence.

The Hindu philosophy believes that the universe was born out of 'Hiranyagarbha', the golden womb. The 'Upanishads', vedic scriptures, maintain that 'Hiranyagarbha' floated in an anti-matter before breaking into two-halves 'Prithvi', the Earth and 'Swarga', the Heaven. Hinduism acknowledged fourteen worlds of which seven were the higher worlds (heaven) and the remaining seven lower worlds(hells)."

Only to folks who accept things on faith. There much compelling evidence that sections of the bible are wrong, borrowed from other faiths, etc. And of course there's the question of which bible. Books have been added an removed over time.

That depends on the situation. In mathematics one often proves "something" doesn't exist by demonstrating its existence leads to consequences/results that are not true.

I am playing the Devil's advocate here a little, but I think it's ignorant on both sides to not accept some of each theories as to how we all got here.

Religion, taken out of context, without studying the average humans' sense of what was what at that timeframe, is just as bad as a scientist completly ignoring what was written in the bible because they believe it to be pure myth.

Science has all kinds of theories, yet they always come to a dead end at some point that they cannot explain. It doesn't mean that what they've concluded up to that point is wrong, but it might just mean that they've missed the other piece of the puzzle because of their hatred for religion.

Like I said earlier, somewhere in the middle is closer to big picture than either by itself.

Am I the only one that fails to see a conflict between evolution and creationism ? GOD is not a static being nor are his creations , over time things CHANGE or EVOLVE.


Mike

I don't see the conflict, IMO creation is continual and ongoing process.

Nope your not.........

JOBAMA and Tod would like everyone to learn only one way of thinking in school and that an alternative or addition to science is simply rubbish.

And they call Christians close-minded.

Matt, why the Bible and not some other revealed religion? There is just as much evidence for Amena-Ra as for Yaweh. Show me some independently verifiable proof for the existence of God. Something that can be weighed, measured and verified. Something that can pass scientific peer review. Then I'll gladly accept the notion of God, and all that goes with it.

The idea that something must exist because we can't prove it is ridiculous. Are you familiar with Russell's teapot?

Please note that the atheists argument is that there is probably no god, and lacking verifiable evidence for a gods existence, we assume it is non-existent. The same way you probably assume that the Easter Bunny is non-existent.

No. I think the role of educators is to teach facts and reality. If people want to believe in magical fairies that's there business.

If you are going to teach religion in school - let's say creationism - and use the argument that it's another theory, be prepared to teach every creation mythos because they are all equally valid from a scientific perspective.

Now if you can offer some peer reviewed scientific studies that support Creationism, I'd be interested.

Science classes are for science. Students should have a chance to learn the state of the science so they can understand what all the controversy is all about. Whether the science is or is not actually true does not really matter. It is very easy to hate what you do not understand. Many science teachers, however, are not very good at teaching the evolutionary theories and often try to pit science against religion. That just makes matters worse.

6mm, you are not alone.


edit: Tod, I went to school under the Scopes Law in Tennessee. They eventually said you could teach the evolutionary theories if you taught Creation. Several groups demanded that their versions also be taught. The legislators of Tennessee finally threw up their hands and made it legal to teach anything the teacher wanted.