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I was enviably fortunate to know Elmer as neighbor and friend from 1955 or 1956 until his death. I didn't have any respect for Charlie until we became friends years later and he proved to be more than met the eye. (I still loathe several of his quirks.)

I can remember reading Jack O'Connor's great writing, which in no way could Keith match. I didn't dawn on me until I read the flap of one his books that he was an accomplished writer and a former professor of jounalism.
What changed my opinion of Elmer was reading "Sixguns by Keith." And getting a little time behind my own handguns. That 600 yd. shot he made on a wounded buck, I believe it. That's because, by following his directions, I've been able to hit a man sized target as far as 400 yds. with my handguns, once I learned how much front sight to hold up. He used to regularly practice at ranges up to 700 yds. on such targets. So why couldn't he have done it ?
And he was the real deal. Not just with a rifle. But with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun.
I was going to buy "Hell, I was there." Now, I very sorry I didn't. E

This is probably apocryphal, but . . .

My ex-partner's father-in-law was a border patrolman who spent some time with Charlie Askins, and told of Charlie and Charles Senior going out on "varmint hunts" along the Rio Grand.

They'd take a pair of accurate scoped rifles, find a bluff or butte near a trail with a good view of the river and set up a blind on top.

They considered wetbacks to be fair game . . .

By the way, Ken, Les Bauska's older brother was also in the Border Patrol and had a few Askins stories to tell. Makes me wish I'd spent more time listening to Les and/or had a better memory.

As a total aside, I wonder why folks questioned Keith's long range shooting but accepted Ed McGivern's without question? McGivern was hitting man-sized targets at least as far away as Elmer's buck.

There are some films of McGivern and his shooting. I am not aware of any films about Keith. That may explain, in part, some of the skepticism regarding Keith. It's a real shame no one ever filmed him or, if they did, never made it public.

O

I just looked, and at www.half.com you can get a used copy of "Hell, I was there" for just under $40. Try this link:

http://product.half.ebay.com/Hell-I-Was-There_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ2901017

"Unrepentant Sinner" in paperback is available at the same site for under $25:

http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQprZ309519QQcpidZ448577

Midway shows Unrepentant Sinner in stock for $22.99

Unrepentant Sinner

I loved to read Elmer, and I do believe his ability to shoot. I visited him once with Dave Stucker at the hospital in Boise, and he was interesting to talk to...He was a good friend of Guide and Packer Dave Stucker out of Boise. He had a world of hunting experience and a lot of knowledge on guns and shooting. He left some deep tracks in the big bore world.

I never believed some of the stuff he proclaimed in his book about riding bucking horses until he was bleeding out his ears and nose..I have ridden enough bucking horses to know better than that.

I also don't believe he backed down two Arizona Game Wardens with a threat to shoot it out with them because he didn't have a license or some such minor deal, that would have been a gunfight for sure and he would have ended up in jail or dead on a deal like that..

I don't believe Charlie Askins shot Mexicans while varmint hunting for sport, I will guarentee you that never happened..I think somebody got a little carried away with the story and from time to time these stories have a way of being taken out of context and magnified beyond belief as time goes by.

I was raised on a ranch on the same border where Askins worked, and in fact I was a Customs Agent and later a DEA Agent when he was a border patrolman and I was stationed in El Paso also and the Big Bend National Park, McAllen, and Laredo, at one time or another. I had coffee with him and some other border patrolmen a few times...

Those mexicans back then were mostly cowboys and farm workers that worked on ranches and farms near the Rio Grande, and were not bothered by the BP unless they tried to go to LA or Denver. Just don't cross Interstate 10 was the rule. They were and are for the most part hard working men with families trying to get a better life, nobody shot them unless they were drug smugglers or in defense of their lives..That is just BS...It wasn't near as tough back then in the "old days" as it is now, not even close. Our office had maybe half a dozen shootouts a year, Today their are some really bad folks down South and the gov. agencies have almost quit working the area. They are not allowed to go into Mexico to develope informants I am told. I don't see how they can justify their existence, but hey I'm 20 or so years retired and never looked back, so I don't know what they do anymore. I know a hell of a lot of people are getting killed down there, more than we are told about. The Cartels are in cahoots with the Mexican Army and others and its a war.

There was another gun scribe Border Patrolman that was famous for being a fast draw artist and hunted a bit also..I remember when he fast drew and accidently killed his partner in the BP office in El Paso as I recall..Can't remember his last name..First name was Bill ?

Jordan???

Yeah, Bill Jordan. Some time back I got interested and tried to confirm that story. I could not sort it out reliably, one way or the other, from contemporary accounts (which are the only historical research sources worth a damn)

One thing I did sort out was the "fued" between Keith and O'Connor. MUCH overblown. Keith's private letters evidenced a worry that O'Connor's advice re calibers was "dangerous" in that O'Connor did not advocate heavy-for-caliber projectiles, at least not to the extent that Keith did. Just about all of O'Conner's work, including many letters, is now anthologized. I found nothing about Keith as a man. My impression: Keith worried/thought about O'Connor's work a lot more than the reverse.

I love 'em both, and have learned from both.

Elmer Keith was right about those big bullets.

wpsuth, I too think that a part (though not all) of the feud between O'Connor and Keith was to sell articles. I think they both had that one figured out, and they truly did disagree on caliber recommendations.

In the back of the Gunnotes I and II books are letters written by Keith and O'Connor, mostly to Truman Fowler. But one direct communication between the two writers was very interesting. O'Connor, I believe upon hearing of a health issue of Keith's, wrote "We disagree on calibers, but that's neither here nor there. Why don't you write your life story? You've lived a life no one will ever have the chance to live again, and it should be put on paper."

I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the books in front of me, but the tone was respectful. Keith's reply to O'Connor was equally respectful. He wrote that he was considering just that. And lo and behold, we got to read "Hell, I Was There." Perhaps they didn't despise each other as much as they would have us believe, or maybe they were just mellowing a bit as they grew older!

I enjoyed both authors immensely. I don't have to 100% agree with someone to learn from them. They both made me think.

I was employed at the El Paso Shefiffs Dept when that event took place. It was told to me that he was in his office and someone walked by and yelled "draw" He did and the gun fired, went through the patition and the bullet hit the officer in the next office...

I am assuming this story to be true as it was told to me sometime later by an officer who was supposedly at the scene..Other than that I don't know much about it. I know he was a nice guy, and if it happened it was truly an unfortunate accident.

Jack O'Conner hunted on our ranch near Marathon, Texas. He loved to hunt the Coues Deer we had. He was professor at Sul Ross University in nearby Alpine, Texas until he wrote an article in the Alpine Avalanche and that got him run out of town and back to Idaho. I think he ticked off the Baptist Church..My dad said he was the best rifle shot he had ever seen and I know this to be a trueism. My neighbor here in Idaho was one of Jacks good friends and also an author of several books on hunting, Lynn Miracle. He told me the fued between Jack and Keith was real, and the anamosity was mostly on Keiths part as Jack didn't much give a damn..According to him Jack could be pretty grouchy and Keith was very bragadocious.

At any rate all these old gunscribes gave a lot of great hours of enjoyable reading to most of us, some of it was BS, some of it was not, but it was all interesting and entertaining.

I'm glad to see you back at the fire. A new book would be an interesting project while you recover. (hint)

I've been working on several books � one of the primary reasons that being stuck seven weeks in the hospitals (away from the computer and all those files) was so frustrating.

I work on several books at a time. Whenever I'm at work on any one book, something comes to mind that belongs in another book � and while I'm working on any chapter, I think of something that belongs in another chapter. The computer makes such hot-flea hopping possible, easy, interesting, almost fun. It's a very special manifestation of real freedom, and that alone is worth more than diamonds or fame.

Bill writes about the incident of the accidental discharge in the office in his book, "No Second Place Winner." He wouldn't have written about it if he had anything to hide. No one was hurt in the incident. You're hearing rumors. Sorry.

Dan

Outstanding!

Bill was my all-time favorite hunting partner. Like Elmer, he was extraordinarily pleased with the fact that he'd never killed anybody.

My dogs loved to roll in dead skunks, especially those that had been dead a long time. Some people love to roll in old rumors that disparage idols. There's something very similar in the olfactory results.

Old rumors and tall tales are interesting historical insights to how people once thought and a reflection, tho maybe distorted, on the past.

Several lawmen of my aquaintance would never dicourage rumors and out right lies about themselves as long as it tended to make them look fearles or capable in a fight with either fists or firearms. A rep can often keep a man from actually getting in a fight.

I always suspected Askins made himself out to be more of a hardcase than he really was, tho I have no evidence of that.

O

My favorite anecdote about a veteran lawman was about a jailer in my mother's home town.

Despite a cherubic face and a prominent stutter, he kept his guests in sincere fear of him. Solemnly patting his ancient holster, he intoned �

"I shoot a b-b-b-big p-p-pistol. Shoots a z-z-z-zig-zag r-r-r-ramblin' ball. If you z-z-z-zig, it z-z-zigs. If you z-z-zag, it z-z-zags. C-c-c-can't miss."

All the boys in town wanted to see him shoot that b-b-big p-p-pistol, but none of his guests and alumni shared that desire.

I've been fortunate enough to have known a few ol' goats in my 60+ years, that were great story tellers. Never bothered me if some hyperbole and BS got thrown in for seasoning, made their yarns even more interesting.

Always considered Keith to be a rare character, based on his articles and G&A columns in his later years. Especially loved the bluster and brimstone in his columns.

When I read Hell, I Was There, made it through about the first 3/4s of it without stopping much. Loved the tales about the live-trapped 'yote he fetched in on his saddle and the descriptions of him taking Zane Grey hunting.

My loss that I never got to meet Elmer Keith personally. We have a retired gunsmith here that's in his mid-90s now, who claims to have met Elmer once, after WWII. He's a bit of a curmudeon himself, but always had good things to say about Keith. My life has been richer for knowing the ol' buzzard, these past 45 years. ;O)

Nothing against Elmer Keith, he was gone before I grew up and I never had much of an opinion of him one way or another.

But a friend lent me his copy of "Hell I Was There" and it was one of the few books I've ever tried to read that I just could not finish. Before anyone spends a bunch of money on it they should realize that the book consists of someone writing down Keith's rambling thoughts as they came out of his mouth, with little or no editing.

But I guess some have enjoyed it.