Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Berger 185VLD

I'm looking for some data for this bullet in my 308 Savage 12FTR. My rifle likes IMR4895, and 4320. I have contacted Berger twice and they have not responded. Trying to get it to hold together at 900 and 1000. Thanks to all.

If nobody chimed in with tested data, here is what I'd do.

Data for the 308 using 4895 and 150, 165, 168, 175, 180 and 190 grains is ubiquitous. I'd collect a bunch of recommended max charges for each weight. Different sources will show different maxes for a given bullet weight, but that's OK as long as the source is competent and responsible.

Once I has this data in hand I'd fit a linear model using bullet weight as the independent variable and charge weight as the dependent variable. Then I'd plug 185 grains into the model and use the output as a reasonable prediction of a max load of 4895 for that bullet weight. With that figure as a guide I'd back off a bit and proceed with load development as usual.

If I wasn't at work I'd do it for you.

Edit: I put together some data from Lyman, Speer, Nosler and Sierra with the Sierra data coming from an older manual before they went to thick FC brass and got lawyerfied. The linear model suggests 41.6 grains as a max for IMR4895 with a 185 grain bullet. That's only a composite model though. You must do your due diligence and work up carefully.

I suggest you read my post about Ammunition, Part II on this forum.

Whatever powder you use is really unimportant, as long as you have it on hand and it fits the profile. I consider Varget to be about the best poweder ther is for .308. IMR4895 is a little faster and IMR4320 is a little slower.

The Hodgdon website has loads for 180 and 190 grain bullets with IMR 430 and 4385.

For 180, 4320 goes from 41 to 45.4 for an MV of 2665. 4895 goes from 40.5 to 44.7 for an MV of 2674.

For 190, 4320 goes from 41-43.7 for 2566 and 4895 goes from 40-43.9 for 2571.

So for 185, I would say the range for 4320 is 41 to 44.4 for an MV of about 2600. For 4895 the range would be 40.3 to 44.2 for about 2620.

The claimed MV for that bullet is .549. Discount by 20 points and plot it out to see what speed you need for 1000 yards.

I wanted to add that with your 30 inch barrel, you should add about 150FPS for the expected MV.

Never had an issue with it staying supersonic to 900 in my M14s, 1000 needed to be a non cold day.

Unfortunately I used a 200 pound keg of surplus powder to drive it thats not available anymore.

somewhere in the burn rate of H380 and somewhere around 43.0 grains.

Good luck. Its an accurate projectile.

Jeff

As I explained in my other posting, being supersonic is not enough, accuracy wise, you have to be comfortably supersonic and in this case, the more the better.

Supersonic at 1000 needing to be 'a non cold day," is not what I would call comfortably supersonic.

According to JBM, if the OP can get this bullet above 2750 in MV at 70 degrees with 20% humidity, it will perform very well for him at 1000 yards. So finding an accuracy node above that velocity with his 30 inch barrel should be the goal.

If it were me (and all disclaimers apply, because I am not the one loading and observing the results,) I would confirm the MV starting at 42.0 of IMR4895 and working up from there using the technique I described earlier. A proper load can be obtained in less than 20 rounds with any luck.

Thanks a bunch, If the weather holds I'll be testing next week.

I sure hope that you are going to take the time to review ALL my calculations and plotting. DO NO TAKE WHAT I WROTE ABOVE AS GOSPEL, check it out. When I do my work up, I have it all on paper and checked with a few sites and loading manuals.

Make sure you understand everything. It's not rocket surgery, but you need to be precise. If you have questions, ask and someone here should be able to help you.

Good luck and keep us appraised. And take copious notes.

I have checked numerous manuals and am starting low. I will post you on the results. Thanks again.

In the current issue of Shooting Times (are we allowed to mention magazines here?) there is a good article about loading at the range and its benefits.

Luke, what twist bbl. are you building this 185 load for? I'm curious because I need to make a 1k yard load for next year. I have some 175smk to work with, but am interested in heavier boolits too.

Whatever weight, I'll start with Reloader 15. Been good to me so far.

I found the 175s`SMK and 180 BurgerVLDs` to be a good compromise at 1K. Velocity and accuracy. I also used 4064 with success.

Isn't that the same as loading at home? Grins. I suspect not to many folks have a bench at 600 just out the back door like I do. Still need to get more limbs trimmed and get the almost 1000 yard bench built!!

TooDogs, My rifle is a Savage 12FTR, with a 1in12 twist. I only shot one match with the SMK 175's so I probably should try to work with them more, but it seems like the common wisdom is heavier is better, and Berger is better. So I'll give them a try.

Mine has an 1:11.25 because I wanted the flexibility to go to the 210 gra bullets. I have shot 200SMKs out of it with no problems. I am now having great results with the 180gr JLK, which is about as long as the 200 SMK.

1:12 should stabilize the 185gr Berger with no problem.

Ha. You obviously have not read my part II about the ammo. By "range" I mean a 100 yards where I can use my chronograph while working up loads.

But in your case we will make an exception, as long as you have your chrono outside the window. :-)

Thanks Luke, I'm 1:12 also. Just may look at the Bergers. I've not tried and boutique bullets like JLK, but just might.

I do my load development at 200 yards. I also set my crono up low to the ground so as I can shoot from my prone position. Deal is I'm able to evaluate accuracy while measuring speed while in the position I'll be shooting matches from. All-In-One load development, lol.

Now, in an ideal situation, I'd have both mid and long range firing points like Jeff to really do it right. I have to work at 200 and throw the dice that accuracy will be acceptable at 600 or, for next year, 1k yards.

While there is no substitute for actualy firing your load at 1000 yards, the technique I detailed in my other post will let you quickly develop a load that has the promise of doing well at 1000 yards. If you have a high BC bullet shooting tiny groups repeatedly at 100 or 200 yards and with a velocity at which the computer says Mach 1.2 or above at 1000 yards, the rest is up to your marksmanship.

If you want boutique bullets like the JLK, order early.

I'd say that if you do the above you have a decent shot at it working, as noted, nothing is proven until you reach the distance you'll use it at. And having noted this before will reiterate, some of my best mid range loads SUCK up close. Suck bad enough I won't use my 600 yard best ammo at 300 yard reduced, it'll be horrible....

But working it that way, small groups, and the chrono telling you you also have decent ES/SD and a buffer for remaining speed at 1000 you are working in the right direction.

In my experience, if a load does not group well at 100 yards, it will not group any better at 200 or 600 or 1000 yards.

All the F-ers, I ever speak with are in agreement on this; if you can't make tiny little bugholes at 100 yards, do not expect to win matches.

Now, I have a theory as to why some people have problems shooting accurately at shorter distances. And I will offer a cure for that.

When I shoot at 100 yards, my expectation of a group is going to be smaller than a half MOA, in fact, I would hope for the fabled one hole group, AKA one ragged hole. But there are two problems with that. The first one is human and the second one is optical.

As human beings we get excited when the bullets hit the same spot over and over again, and as each shot lands, the excitement builds and so does the accompanying dread and trepidation. This culminates in the well known "called flyer," that ruins an otherwise excelent group. That isn't a called flyer, you got flustered and pulled one (or more).

The other aspect is that many make the silly mistake of using the exact POI as the POA. So that as each bullet lands, the aiming point is obliterated and the group grows.

Here is a susper secret method of dealing with both issue. At the 100 yard line, I make SURE that my point of aim (POA) is far removed from my point of impact. For example, my 1000 yard rifle require 30 some inches of elevation from 100 yards to hit the target. Son at 100 yards, I use a tall target and I make a small dot at the bottom of it. Then I take my 5 or 10 or 20 shot group by aiming the scope at the never changing dot. I use the same hold for every shot, and I can't even see the group because it's above my scope's field of view. In fact, I do not want to see the group. I don't bother with it. I will see it soon enough, when my group is finished.

This works very well for me and my groups are tiny at 100 yards so that I can be competitive at longer ranges.