Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Which tool to get the best quality 11 deg. target crown?

SOmeone once said, "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging"

I think you are in way too deep to recover.

Apparently you did not read fully the post I left above yours.. The Manson tools, as I stated above, are used when I have firearms in that cannot be set up in the lathe..

Many gunsmithing tools are expensive.. Consider the choke tube tooling which runs over $500.00 PER GAUGE... Part of the job..

I'm not being 'mean', only wondering how you can get by charging people for work you're most likely not licensed for.. I welcome any new gunsmith into the fold who operates as he/she should and I've done my best to help others here with questions, advice or info on parts etc.. What you've posted so far, tells us that you're not in compliance with the BATFE and that is of some concern, not only to (I'll bet) them but it should be of concern to your 'customers' AND to your state of residence when it comes to sales taxes...

YOU say you're '....in compliance as far as I'm concerned'... but that means didley when it comes to the state revenue dept., the BATFE and to your overall potential liability if something goes wrong..

Since you refuse to answer we can only assume you have no FFL.. For your own work, or for minor work you do for a few others, who cares?? I certainly do not.. But when you're basically in business, going by your statements, it's a whole new ballgame, especially if you ever keep a 'customer's' firearm in your residence overnight... Maybe it gets my goat a little because I went through the whole process to become licensed, obtain a sales tax number, Imust keep full and available records for the BATFE, built my own shop, have overhead and something like 20 thousand bux invested in tooling to become a legitimate businessman and gunsmith. There's a guy in a town near me who does what you 'seem' (I say 'seem' because you don't provide info to prove otherwise) to be doing; operating illegally as a gunsmith.. He'll get caught, in time.. It's going to cost him plenty when he does..

But, what the heck.. As long as you can get away with it, giverhell... You're only putting yourself at risk... Especially with this statement: THAT speaks volumes..

Have a great day..

I see what your concern is. You have a good point here.

I do pay taxes, as a memebr of LLC, from any additional profits I get besides my day time job.

2. There is indeed a fine line here. On one hand, this income from my hobby bussiness is a very small portion, less than 10%, of my total income, so I do not do gunsmithing for living. On the other hand, there are certain provisions in the law, which may be interpereted as a requirement to have license in any case, although these interpetations vary a lot depending on whom you ask.

3. I do not have FFL, and I do NOT keep other people guns overnight, as it would be illegal w/o FFL. My friend, FFL holder and machine shop owner, is in charge, when there is a need for me to help him to thread a barrel, and he keeps all records. As of today, I do not do it any more, requires too much time.

4. Your last post convienced me to become certified, although I do not have plans to do gunsmithing for living, it would still be, I think, of a certain benefit to me.

Take care.

Question for Redneck:

I do not have an FFL. Years ago, I worked as a gunsmith, stock finishing, installing recoil pads, fitting barrels, test firing, etc. This was before 1968, and I did not need an FFL.

I still have some of the tools, and occasionally, I will re-finish a stock or install a recoil pad, or mount a scope or piller bed a rifle. I still have my lathe, but I use it for other purposes than gun work.

I am retired, draw a pension, and what gun work I do is not for additional income, but because I still enjoy doing it. I haven't charged anyone for what minor repairs I can do, or have done.

I'm not going to get involved in building a $10,000.00 custom rifle, but I do have the ability, but why should someone pay me to build it when there are people who advertise in magazines and build them everyday? I have also crowned a few barrels.

My question is, is what I do illegal? It has been two or three years since I worked on a gun, and IIRC, that was only mounting a scope and sighting it in, then clening it for a friend. No charge, except he did furnish the ammunition too sight it in.

I repeat, I am not in business. You mention "overnight" in your post. If I re-finish a stock, naturally, I would have to keep it overnight. Several overnights, to allow the finish to dry. Is this illegal? Just curious.

I ain't Redneck, but my interpretation of the laws are that if you are not being compensated then its is not illegal.

Correct.. But he stated he's made over 6 grand in 3 months.. That, my friends, is compensation...

He's deliberately ignoring not just once, but several times, what I'm asking which tells me something smells like old fish...

I guess he's not smart enough to know they can track him down by his IP address if they wanted to.If they find out and go after him they'll be pipeing sunshine to him.

Not disagreeing with you my friend just answering 13579's question.

no comment on the other dude from me

I gave up.

Can't fool Redneck.

Technical part of muzzle crowning story was correct.

Making money as a gunsmith was fiction.

Congrats, Redneck!

To the op, I have the brownells 11 degree cutter, and made up a handle and pilots on a small lathe. I've done several re-crowns with the tool, and I have yet to be happy with the resultant accuracy. It is a step up from a hacksaw cut bubba sporterized milsurp rifle, but a far cry from a quality crown.

Either use a suitable lathe, or pay a real gunsmith to do the work for you. I already paid for my education on this issue.

PS,

The overnight issue requiring an FFL is as I understand it, if you keep somones firearm, i.e. a complete firearm or any part or combination of parts containing the s/n action you have to have an FFL.

If the person is on the premises while you do a quick repair you don't need an FFL, if you are only working on say a barrel for t/c contender or encore you dont' need an ffl, or if you are refinishing a bare stock, i.e. stock sans barreled action you don't need an FFL.

For many years I thought putting together a part time gunsmithing shop for work on the side would be a great idea. Then I looked into FFL requirements, insurance, liability, tooling etc and figured it just wasn't worth it.

And somehow it seems the guys doing underground work seem to put out underground quality. Either one is serious about doing it right, in all aspects, or they aren't.

"Originally Posted By: THOMASMAGNUM
I ain't Redneck, but my interpretation of the laws are that if you are not being compensated then its is not illegal."

"Correct.. But he stated he's made over 6 grand in 3 months.. That, my friends, is compensation...

He's deliberately ignoring not just once, but several times, what I'm asking which tells me something smells like old fish..."

UH, Redneck, THOMASMAGNUM was answering my question and responding to my statement. Not to that of someone else.

No worries on my part, guys I am cool with everybody here.

Yep.. As long as the firearm is in/out in the same day, no requirement.. I'm betting that's not always the case, especially with muzzle brake install..

It does take serious investment and comes with serious liability; both lacking with Mr. Mishka...

How true...

Sorry.. Didn't notice that.. But his post could very well apply anyway...



For a few bux they'll not bother.. But a statement about over 6 grand in 3 months for crowns alone may very well bring a whole lot of unwanted attention.. Not to mention a possible IRS audit if he's not reporting this 'vodka/crown' income.. Not to mention the state dunning this dude for failure to collect/report sales taxes along with failure to apply for a tax collection id.. Not to mention the BATFE getting involved as to meeting federal requirements re: licensing... They specifically state 'occasional' smithing needs no requirement.. But it's up to them to define 'occasional'.. I have a feeling that 6 grand in 3 months is a bit more than occasional..

But whatever... It's up to them...

I'll shut up now and leave this alone... Most likely to everyone's relief..

Was the finish good? If so, then I take it your only concern was the resulting accuracy?

Ron

Typically the finish had chatter marks. I tried a variety of lubricants. The problem is once the chatter marks show up, you can't really do anything about them sans chucking it up in the lathe and doing it right, or getting out the hacksaw to take off another chunk of barrel and starting over.

And yes, I was not happy with the accuracy. A good example was a ruger 22/45. It shot fairly well ~1" and change at 25 yds, but I figured a new crown would increase the accuracy. I was wrong, the groups opened up to about 2".

As I recall I used it on that 22/45, a 357 and 44 mag blackhawk and super blackhawk, and a t/c 357 mag barrel. Oh there might have been an 8mm mauser as well.

What's the point of an 11 deg target crown if not for top accuracy? And I lathe turned the pilots for each barrel for minimal fit in the bore.

Mishka:

I agree: I don't want my rifle "stripped and chucked" in 15 minutes. I have a lot of machine shop experience and access to these machines (big enough to pass the action through the head). I had planned to make my own expanding pilot setup for the standard brownell's cutter but then I saw the David Manson setup and decided to just find someone with that tool. Where are you located? I already asked D.M. Reamers if they will refer me to a shop in my area with this tooling.

If you don't have a lathe for the job the Manson is the best tool for the job. If I'm not mistaken MF of NULA arms crowns all his rifles with the hand tool and not the lathe. The Manson tool is really expensive for one crowning job. You need to find a local smith and save shipping just to have it re-crowned. Rednecks offer is very reasonable except for the shipping both ways. I have never used Redneck for rifle work but he has a good rep with guys on this forum who has had him do work for them.

nt

My dremel stone on a step crown E.R. Shaw barrel for a 10/22 reduced groups size with SK std Plus at 25 yards from .155"-.275" groups to .045"-.130".

Cost me $5........

That said, find a local smith and build a relationship. The dividends of giving a guy your business pay off in the long run.

If you must do it yourself, buy the manson set, and the offer a deal on a crown job too your hunting buddies to help recover the cost as it is expensive for just one.