Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only What's the stronger ACTION... The Win. Model 94 or the Marlin 1895?

Looking at getting a LEAD chunker...

What's the stronger of the two actions and why?

The Model 94 from Winchester or the Model 1895 from Marlin?

Since the factories have seen fit to chamber each in .450 Marlin, I suspect they are close enough to equal to let you select on a fit, comfort, and esthetic appeal basis. I have two 94's in .444 Marlin, and the intensity on the butt end gets high enough that I'm not overly interested in pushing the envelope. And I don't expect to encounter anything I can't handle comfortably with a 300 gr bullet started at 2200 fps. Even in Alaska <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

I think muledeer's probably right and they are about equal, but they don't seem that way to me...

I own three marlins, 44 mag, 444 and 450 marlin, and no winchesters. I just can't get past how floppy they seem when the action is open. I know they lock up strong, but the Marlin just seems more solid to me. There is also the idea of top ejection on the winchesters and scope placement, but people have sworn by them for 100 years.

My thoughts are that you should check them out for yourself and pick the one that "feels" right to you.

I've had Marlins, and I own Winchesters. The Marlins "feel" tighter and more solid, but are also about two pounds heavier. I bought the levergun for poking around in the brush where a long shot is 100 yards, and I bought the .444 for big-bullet capability. (We do have big furries that bite up here, though I don't lose a lot of sweat fretting over them.) I have bolt guns for longer distance shooting, and for circumstances requiring more power. The levergun needs to be light and handy to properly fit its niche, and for my tastes, the winnie fits better. But that truly becomes a Ford-Chevy thing.

I agree....almost. The new guide gun (18.5 inch) that I have in 450 Marlin, is as light as you'd want to ignite a big caliber in, even with the compensator. Kicks like a mule(deer) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Note my earlier comment:

"I have two 94's in .444 Marlin, and the intensity on the butt end gets high enough that I'm not overly interested in pushing the envelope."

You are ever so correct...shooting the new 94 in 450 with 400-500 gr bullets would be...interesting... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.

But the little rifles do meet a definite need that nothing else does, and at a reasonable price -- which is why Marlin and Winchester keep selling so many of them.

I have a Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin, a custom take down by Cosby Custom Guns (http://www.cosbycustomguns.com/). I have it set up as a scout, with the forward mounted scope.

It is heavy, but was near unshootable with Jae-Bok Young's 550 grain "Crater" bullets (www.competitor-pistol.com/jbyoung.html) until I slapped a LimbSaver recoil pad on it.

Still a handfull, but not painful!

I don't know which has the stronger action. I'm a winchester fan big time so when I set out looking for a big bore lever (at the time 444 was the ticket) I fell in love with the picture in the winny booklet of the Winchester "timber carbine" in 444. Man what a pretty gun! "I just have to have it" was my first thought but I knew I had to compare the Marlin vs the winny. I asked my dealer if he could order in a timber carbine 444, didn't commit to buying one, just wanted to compare it to a marlin 444 he had in the store. It came in, he ordered a couple of em. One had darker wood than the other, both were very pretty. I prefered the slimmer fore end of the Winchester & the overall look of the winchester but when I worked both actions it was clear that I felt the Marlin action felt stronger, tighter, less springy... I chose the Marlin but didn't buy one just then, I waited for the 450 which was just kind of a rumer at the time. I've got the 1895M 450 Marlin & I like it a lot. I did however recently handle a brand new winchester now chambered in 450 as well & I seriously think the action feels much better than that timber carbine I fondled a few years back.

This topic has come up a number of times on leverguns forum. There was a guy that re-barreled a number of guns to 454 Cassul to see which would be suitable for conversion. He used an old 1920's made Winchester 94, a newer angle eject 94, a Browning 92, and a Marlin 336 (same basic action as the 444 and 45-70's etc). The results were that the Marlin action failed sooner than the others, as in less than 20 rounds, next was the angle eject Winchester, then the older 94. The 92 action was the strongest. The Marlin bulged the receiver walls at the locking bolt area, and became impossible to fire, the angle eject Win stretched the right receiver wall noticably and became impossible to fire, the older 94 stretched also, the 92 action continued to function, and was re-barreled to 45 colt and is still being used. The angle of the locking bolts on the 92 action are 90 degrees to the axis of the bore, this seems to help with the action strength. The 94 action has some angle to the locking bolt. If you look at the Marlin bolt, there is a recess in the lower side of the bolt that the locking bolt goes into, it is about half the diameter of the bolt itself. The Winchester 94 has the entire rear of the bolt blocked by the locking bolt, more surface area to engage. The 92 (and 1886 Winchester) has 2 locking bolts that engage along both sides of the bolt and go to the top of the bolt, and as mentioned, are at 90 degrees to the bore. None of the guns that failed "blew up", they just became unusable (would not fire). All of the guns that failed did so in rather few rounds, less than 25 if I recall correctly. No, it isn't a definative study, but interesting nonetheless.

The moral is not the one action is "better" than another for the majority of uses. IF you are going to load them up with loads way in excess of the rounds they were originally made in, then yes strength is an issue, I've not heard of any of these guns having strength related issues in normal use, even over a very long period of time. There has been much discussion about the guns made in 307, 356, and 450 being heat treated differently, and several guys have said they have contacted the factory and say the factory comfirms this. There has been some discussion about the 307 and 356 guns (50Kpsi rounds) wearing sooner than the other calibers, but I don't know if this is common.

For the majority of us, the strength isn't an issue, both are adequet for the intended use. If the Marlin "feels" stronger (IE you LIKE it better), then use them. I personally prefer Winchesters, as in 30-30 or 38-55 cal they are lighter and thinner for carry. I also feel they are simpler to use if you use small game loads in them, and for clearing the chamber while leaving the magazine loaded as when coming back into camp, or getting back in a vehicle etc if I have chambered a round for any reason while out. I prefer the 1886 action in 45-70 caliber to the Marlin 1895. The 86 is heavier, but the user friendly aspects are more important in this case.

I'm not sure why "top opening" is often cited as objectionable, when many common guns operate this way, but are never mentioned in this context. The M1 Garand, M1 carbine, Mini-14, all bolt actions, and single shot guns are "top opening". I've never had any problem with any gun that had the bolt open on the top that had any relationship to how the bolt opened, they do seem simpler to check and/or load to me, not to mention clear a round from the chamber while leaving the magazine loaded.

I LIKE Marlins, I just have gravitated to Winchester/Brownings for most of my levergun use for the reasons mentioned above.

The BLR comes with a wide butt pad, light weight, a strong rotating bolt lockup and you can use pointy bullets at 308 and 358 velocities. Or, you can settle for a Marlin or Winchester. (And sometimes I do too.)

Garret Cartridges thinks that the Marlin action is stronger. Notice that their most powerful load (540gr) is recommended for use in modern Marlins only:

GARRETT'S 45-70 GOVERNMENT AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS

420-GR SUPERHARDCAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1650-FPS

THIS AMMO IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN TC CONTENDER, KODIAK MK IV, BFR REVOLVERS, C. SHARPS, NEF, SHILOH SHARPS, MARLIN, WINCHESTER, BROWNING, AND RUGER FIREARMS.

ENERGY: 2540 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 45; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 27,000-CUP; SAAMI COMPLIANT; TRAJECTORY: +3.5" @ 100-YDS, ZERO @ 150-YDS, -8.3" @ 200-YDS

GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS

420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS

THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, MARLIN, NEF, AND SHILOH SHARPS RIFLES.

ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .287; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS


GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS

540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS

THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES.

ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .368; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS;

Uhhh... Winchester doesn't make a 45-70 in a 94 action. Personally, I think this is kinda strange because they do offer the .450 Marlin. From what I've heard, they have a lot of money invested in the Brownchester 1886 tooling, and don't want another "Winchester" 45-70 competing with the '86 in sales. FOOLS! Think how many people would line up to buy '94s in 45-70.

Bob

Interesting that both the second and third Garret loads show the same chamber pressure.

I've held a 45-70 round up to a Winchester 94 action, I don't think it's possible to get the rim in the action. It won't even fit down between the frame rails. The 450 has a smaller rim diameter.

Winchester went as far as to announce the 45-70 '94 a few years ago. It never materialized, of course. Just like so many others.

Bob