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To Huntaria Setters and jetjockey - the definition of "backyard breeder" doesn't have anything to do the size of the kennel. It means a breeder that doesn�t do their homework, has no plan, doesn�t understand the consequences of making poor choices, and doesn�t stand behind their dogs when a problem comes up. It�s the guys who get together because one has a boy dog, and the other has a girl dog, and they�re sure they can make a lot of money selling the puppies. If you don't believe me, go ahead and do an internet search on the term backyard breeder and see what comes up. Some of the best dogs come from small kennels with very conscientious breeders.

Pointing dogs have some of the same health issues as Labs, as well as others, so regardless of breed you still have to do your homework.

To Huntaria Setters � yes, you did misinterpret my post� I was trying to get across what a good breeding program does. It sets type, so that�s why I was recommending that people take a look at NAVHDA � because they maintain a database of test scores so that you can see how the breeder has progressed with their line and you can also see where the weaknesses are. Having a set type (or line) in a breeding program is like when you go to the store for a Granny Smith apple � you can grab any one off the pile and they�re going to taste like a Granny Smith. Yes, some are going to be more sweet, or sour, and every once in awhile you�ll get a bad one, but in general they are all pretty similar; you know what you are going to get.

I can�t fault you too much for what you wrote, as I would have done the same years back. I used to bad mouth various hunting dog organizations, too. Now that I have more experience under my belt, here�s what I think � any organization that a person wants to join that gets them out in the field with their dog in addition to hunting season is great! It gets them and their dog more experience, lets them try out different ways of doing things, they can have some fun, and they meet like minded people. If a certain organization isn�t your cup of tea, try something else. It�s why we have Fords, Chevys, Dodges, Toyotas, Nissans, GMCs, etcetera, in no particular order�

I�m not quite understanding your beef with DNA testing� NAVHDA does it in an attempt to maintain a verifiable registry. It doesn�t lock the small breeder out; you just have to have the sample collected and submitted by a veterinarian. Wouldn�t you agree that a small breeder is just as capable of being dishonest as a �name� breeder?

I will completely agree with you on doing it for the love of, and to further, the breed; whatever breed that may be.

I would say the Labrador is the better family dog, unless you really want to be out excercising the dogs. Seems to me that the GSP ( wonderful breed by the way ) is a bit more high energy and requires more run time.

My young lab needs his fair shair of time to run, but he is really pretty mellow in the house, and calming a bit more every day.

The breeder I bought my dog from asked me several question and I realized that my dog was going to be 85% family dog, 15% hunting dog. He has a wonderful pedigree, but I did not take the 'hardest charging' dog from the litter. A real go getter in the field has a tough time containing his energy in the house.

The lab is a favorite of mine. I would like to have a GSP or Viszla as well, but as I go through the process of training a good, aggressive field trial dog, it makes me wonder what one of the more high energy dogs would be like in the house.

Well, I used to run both horseback and NSTRA trials. I won a few too, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I quit about 15 years ago, because, IMO, it was more about winning than the betterment of anything. I've seen some pretty strange and near-boderline crooked results. It just wasn't fun anymore and for many guys, it didn't have a thing to do about getting out with their dogs. Now, having said that, I'm all for men hunting and having fun with their dogs. Nothing worse than good blood left to wither.

As for NAVHDA, some of the tests are so contrived, I really don't see how its used as good predictor of breed or bloodline. Perhaps some aspects, I suppose could be argued that way. As a comparison, some aspects of horseback trials are more about ground speed than natural ability. Did you ever try to foot hunt some of the extremes that are occasionally bred for this sort of thing?

I will say this, though, for NAVHDA. I do think their registry program at least attempts to screen for genetics. So, in this regard, I would also agree that its certainly not a bad place to start.

I will agree that in general, good trial dogs make good bird dogs. I will tell anyone that. I have no beef with this. What I find disturbing is when this is the only indication that folks use. You might be surprised that some dogs that wouldn't cut it at a trial because their tail is not quite high enough, make terrific hunting dogs.

As for DNA testing, anyone can be dishonest. I don't know if you know the whole story behind this, but it was a very big name in breeding that was a primary cause for AFDSB to go to DNA testing. That was my point.

Really, I think you and I are probably pretty much on the same page. I did misinterpret your post and for that I apologize.

KcnBoise....I been calling our operation a "backyard kennel" since it's inception years ago! I always thought that most people, who visited us went away thinking we were indeed a Backyard Breeder too. The wife and I don't do this for turning a big profit, we are lucky to break even when the bills are paid. We do what we do for the love of being around our dogs period. We try to raise at least one litter a year and sometimes it is two litters of excellent pedigreed pups. We don't pressure people and we don't compete in competition, no need to really, the bloodlines and pedigrees of our dogs speak for themselves. How many Son's & Daughters of National Champions do you own may I ask? I don't give a Hoot N Nanny what you call our operation, but you do need to know that we put out some of the very best bred dogs and pups in the entire country BARE NONE!!!

I was told years ago by a elderly (55years) gentleman, one of the real old bird hunters of years passed, who is still going strong at 80yrs today and owns his on game preserve as well, that breeding the very best to the very best, will pay dividends in the future. This is what we do at our kennel, make no mistake about that fact!!!
We started with son's and daughters of "national field trial champions" (1st & 2nd picks mind you) and it doesn't get any better than that in my journal. Those people who received puppy's from us, have never brought up a complaint concearning the puppy or dog they took home with them over all these years. So much for Back Yard Breeders I guess!

I do believe that YOU got your words a bit confused with real facts and you should have listed PUPPY MILL instead. However, we at Tall Oak Gun Dogs, are not a PUPPY MILL by any means. We are lucky if we have 2 litters a year and yet we have 5 very well bred ladies in our kennel, daughters of several champions such as NFC Heide HO's MRT, NFC Magnums Touch Of Gold, NFC Shell Shocked Frank and Champion Show Time's Rollin Thunder "Ricky" Not to mention the soon addition of a lady out of Mark Wasermans great dog NFC CUTTER.

This quote really cracks me up. I hear that from SO many people. Field Trial dogs are not any more high energy in the house then any other dogs from the same breed. With any of the high energy pointing breeds, they need their excercise. You can't expect to keep a Brit, GSP, EP, Viszla, or ES in the house 24/7 and have them be good house dogs. It doesn't take a lot of excercise, but they need to get out, walk, pee and smell things at least every other day. I have a "high energy" field trial brit who is a tweener. She runs a big shooting dog brace and a small All Age brace. She qualified for the Brittany Open Gun Dog nationals at 22 months old, and has a very nice trial career so far. She is running in OAA this weekend and OGD the following weekend. She is a great house dog. She spends 99% of her time lying on the couch, the bed, or stepping on our feet while shes in the house. Having a field trial dog thats also a house dog is not tough, as long as the dogs gets the excercise they need.

GSP!

I don't trial so take this for what it is worth. Thought about getting into Springer trials until I talked with some and found out just how much politics can come into play with regards to who wins. At least at the smaller events. Some may deny it, but it exists big time.

I've had the opportunity to hunt over some good pointers for Ruffed Grouse. ES and EP. Most of these dogs came from what some would refer to as back yard breeders. The thing that set them apart was they were hunters of the first order. The foundation of their dogs had great blood. The dogs they subsequently breed proved themselves in the Grouse woods. Not all of the offspring were great, but more than a few turned out good.

Some dogs that had their foundation from hunter trials have run beside their dogs on occasion. They couldn't hold the proverbial candle to those breed by the Grouse hunters.

Don't mean to say that some could not, just what I've observed over the years.

Pointed Ruffed Grouse don't come easy and the experience needed to do so rarely will come from planted birds in hunt tests.

Addition: Have a friend whose GSP had his Master classification in whatever organization that applies. He told me he never could handle Grouse.

Addition 2: To the original question. From what I've seen for the average guy who is not going be the most serious dog trainer, it would be a Lab. Get the basics down, put the dog into a lot of birds, go hunt and train on the run so to speak. Training a pointer is not something one does now or then or just when they can fit it in. If there is any hobby where you get what you put into it, it would be having a good pointer.

I did not mean that field trial dogs were high energy dogs. My dog is a black lab and has more field trial champions in its pedigree than I have fingers on my hands. What I meant was the fact that German Short Hairs and Viszlas are much like Weims in that they have a strong desire to be around people all the time, and they have a high amount of energy! They were build to run, built to hunt. I was comparing them to the Labrador.

Oakster,......Yes our GSP dogs are bred to run and fast! However, they are very good in the house too. We only have 1 out of 15 dogs that is NOT meant for the house. This dog was not bred by us and came from a "show breeder" as a puppy. Her temperment is ok but she is as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof, eyeballing a mouse below. A beautiful dapple grey look with ticking but she can not sit still period. We had to move her to the kennel out of the house at 10 months old. The wife picked her out some years ago but she does not make a good walking pet either or car buddy if you get my drift.

Hey there, just signed up on this site so i hope ya'll don't mind me joining in. To throw in my 2 cents, I've had my GSP for about two years, and he's been the absolute best dog i've ever had. I've only really been around two of them, mine and my uncle's, so I can't speak for the whole breed. But I'll say that at least with mine, they're not probably as good of housepets as labs. They seem to be geared soley towards hunting. They do show affection, but usually not long enough to be noticed. However, if you're looking for a more intelligent, dedicated hunting dog, I don't think you'll find a better breed than the GSP.

Well. I am a bit partial. But my Brit puppy did pretty well in the trial circuit this year and I just got her home from the trainer. She sat right next to me for 8 hours on the drive home yesterday, and shes sleeping right next to me on the couch right now. Shes a pretty darn good house dog if you ask me. Maybe not as good as my lab, but she can run a heck of a lot more them him!

prolly depends on the individual GSP......no doubt that he is always showing affection.....only been recently that ive been getting through his thick german skull that he is not a lap dog....

Can't resist on this one--for the OP I'd go Brittany over Lab or GSP.

GSP, no question.

It would depend on your hunting style or the type of bird hunting you do. One dog is a pointer and the other is not. One is great with water fowel the other is not.

I've owned both and I would LOVE to cross my male GSP with a quality hunting Lab female. I think the cross would be awsome!

I currently own both and my experience has been that the Lab is a little smarter[easier to train] and more eager to please the person handling him. On the other hand my GSP has a much superior nose and is an "energizer bunny" in the field . Both are fine family dogs and I would hate to have to choose one over the other.

i've hunted and owned labs that will point better than most pointers... the honcho of the local duck club prefers GSPs as his waterfowl retrievers...

the lab is generally a bit easier to train, but it's not so much that he's smarter, per se, but that he's so much less independent minded than are most dogs of pointing breed...

I'd agree with that. I'm still a rookie and can vouch that smart/independent dogs are a handful for inexperienced handlers!!

On the same hand, once they're trained, they're a joy to hunt behind.....

I've hunted pointing labs too. They are fun and work well enough on pheasants.

For out right pointing qualities, though, I'd be willing to stack 90% of good pointing dog stock up against pointing labs. A good pointer will not only find birds, he'll hold 'em too.