Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Heavy hard cast load for 45-70

A couple of months ago I bought a few boxes of hard cast bullets from Jae Bok Young (jbyoungnhaol.com). The first box was a un-sized, un-gas checked, un-lubed 420gr for the purpose of fire lapping my 1895G Marlin. The second was a stunning revelation. A 550gr heat treated hard cast gas checked WLNFP by the name of "Crater". Wow what a bullet. This thing is freaking huge. So I did some research and found old and new handloading data for this bullet weight. If you have an old Lyman handbook the 47-70 loading for the old #462560 552 gr bullet has IMR 3031 pushing this brute at 1442fps from a 26" 1-22" twist barrel. But I thought I could do better than that. Jae Bok sent me some data from customers of his that managed to move this bullet at around 1500+fps using ball powders like H335 and H322. So I just had to try it. I started with 41gr H335 and ceased at 44gr H335. The first shot was an eye opener to say the least. By the time I reached the 44gr load I was a little bruised. I shoot a first year production 1895G with the highly debated ported barrel, and after shooting this load I now see the merit in this way of thinking. I have handloaded most of the bullets available for the 45-70 and thought I could handle every bit of recoil this rifle could dish out. Well, this was a real challenge. It felt like a completely different rifle. The recoil was enough to cause a slight flinch in my once refined shooting, and the impact at 100 yards was enough to grab the attention of every shooter at the range that day. It was a muddy day and the soil was a flyin. After a few trips to the range I have settled on 43gr of H335 at (approximately) 1500fps and a 1.5" group at 100yds. And believe me, I had to re-think my shooting habits. For shots at game under 150yds at any living thing, I think this load will prevail. It has changed my view of this spectacular old cartridge and I cant wait to try it on Black Bear this year.

Have you tried a Limb Saver pad? That rifle is on my short list of stuff I need...
John

I had a Pachmayer Decellerator pad installed several years ago. It makes a difference.

358owner, you probably already know this, but when loading a .45/70, be VERY careful to note the OAL of the loaded rounds. Lots of older rifles allowed many of the heavier bullets to be loaded out to longer seating lengths, thus effectively increasing usable internal capacity. The lever guns require a shorter OAL, and thus, limit potential powder chamber capacity, and this can increase pressures DRASTICALLY if loads for the longer seated rounds are used.

Your loads sound quite safe to me, offhand. I'm using 300 JHP's over 57 gr. of H322 in WW cases with WLR primers, crimped in the groove.

I know what you mean about some of the stout .45/70's really "getting your attention." I tried some hellbenders in a Browning B-78 once, and that crescent steel butt on that one will REALLY hurt a fella', if you give it a chance! I did. ONCE!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Shooting a big ol' bullet kinda' makes a fella' squint at some of the ads in the magazines, doesn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> These itty bitty 300's really whack whitetails down south.

Well, Im not usually one to invent a handload from scratch. The handloading data I used was proven by others first but I must admit that I was a little concerned about max pressure signs. So, how does one know when to stop before it is too late? I just happened to have half a box of Buffalo Bore's 430gr hard cast on hand. In my oppinion this is an extreme example of pushing the limits of a rifle's capabilities. Buffalo Bore loads their 45-70 ammo to be all that it can be (40,000cup). This is the perfect example of a max load. As I worked up my 550gr handloads I compared the expansion ring around the base of the previously fired Buffalo Bore to that of my handloads with precision calipers. My max load was obviously running at lower pressures by comparison.

I feel your pain. i experimented with the heavies and it was a shock when comparing the recoil to 300 grain bullets. No one at the range wanted to try one of my 500 grain loads after they saw me shoot them. I have found that the heavy bullets are very accurate and they produce a low standard deviation from round to round.

Here are a couple of heavy hard cast bullets I've had real good performance with. Both are Lyman. One is a 325 Gr. Gas Check design I load in my .45 Colts, and my Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull. The other is a 552 Gr. that I load in both my Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun, and my Magnum Research BFR .45-70 Revolver. This slug also performs well in both my .458 Winchesters. I cast it hard out of 75% Linotype and 25% Lead with a 5% Antimony content. Recoil is stout in the revolver, but performance is about as much as you could possibly get out of a hand gun. Thats a loaded .45 ACP round for size comparision. billt





The loaded rounds at the bottom of this photo contain the Lyman #462560 552 Gr. Gas Check slugs. The long cylinder of the BFR accommodates these rounds nicely. The other BFR in the photo is in .500 S&W Magnum.

The measurement of case head expansion and pressure ring expansion is not a reliable indicator of excessive pressure. Particularly comparing Buffalo Bore ammo to your handloads. Buffalo Bore uses specially designed brass with small, doubly recessed primer pockets. So if you are not using the same brass in your handloads your results certainly cannot be relied upon, and would even be suspect if you had. Determining excessive pressure in the Marlin lever gun can be elusive. Primer condition usually is of no help as those characteristics will generally not show up until one is well over the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895. The best procedure to follow I believe is to use published or tested reloading information with measured velocities and a chronograph. Following load components and cartridge overall length, if one exceeds neither the maximum charge nor velocity and do not experience sticky extraction, the loads are most likely safe. If you are truly at 1500 fps and extraction is smooth your loads are most likely safe.

"Buffalo Bore uses specially designed brass with small, doubly recessed primer pockets."

The Buffalo Bore ammunition that I have is loaded on Starline Brass. Nothing "special" about it. Where did you get this information?? billt

Tim Sundles. He designed it and Starline makes it for him. He also uses military spec small rifle primers in his ammunition. I believe he made this change in 2002.

I agree with Jackfish.I have some Buffalo Bore 350 Speer ammo and it is the same way with the small primer pocket and I here Garrett ammo is the same.Don't know for sure but I think so.

I also load the 550 Crater in my Guide gun with Winchester Brass and CCI primers and H-322 for 1500 fps.It is not an overload and the kick is more of a shotgun push to me than the snap of a 300 Win Mag or even a 405 Kodiak pushed to max.

Velocity from a chrono is a far more accurate means of pressures than the pressure ring but I also use it to see for myself and to date there is nothing concrete time after time to tell in my opinion.

I do know a guy who loads with H-335 and the 550 and uses the same amount of powder as you for approximately the same velocity.Your load should be just fine in my opinion.

Jayco