Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Europe 360 Nitro Express? Any ideas?

It was my first day out with the Cape gun with the new rear site installed. 12 gauge side worked just dandy with low pressure 2 � inch shells. The rifle side held a surprise for me.

I had bought the piece with the understanding that the rifle barrel was 38-55. It even came with two boxes of 38-55. 38-55 cartridges chamber. Pieper made a 12 and 38-55 combo that looks just like my gun. In short, I had every reason to believe it was 38-55 except for a stamp saying so.

My first shot was with a very low pressure load. Just 6 � grains of Red Dot powder behind a 250 grain .375 projectile. The first shot did not clear the barrel.

I tapped it out with a rod and noticed that the rifling had left deep imprints from the lands. The grooves did not leave any marks on the projectile. So it was touching the lands but not filling the full bore. This is a good thing since when I put a caliper on the projectile at home (by default I had �slugged� the bore) I found that it had been reduced from .375 to .365 (actually 364.5)!

I do NOT have a 38-55. I have a rimmed, straight walled 9.xx Chambering of .365 diameter. In addition to the .365 bore I found that a loaded 38-55 cartridge is still � inch short of the rifling. Hmmm�.. What the heck is it? I don�t know yet.

The underside of the rifle barrel has numerous proof marks including �Express� but nothing to indicate the chambering. Except possibly an 8.8 stamped some distance away from all other marks.

What does 8.8 mm convert to in caliber? 364 or 365?

Could it be the old 360 Nitro Express? Does anyone have information on that cartridge (especially projectile diameter?). My gun has a patent date of 1881 so the timing would be about right....

Any other guesses? Advice?

Sounds like a rifle a a buddy of mind bought about 16 years ago. German guild Cape gun. Never did find the what it is chambered for. I'm curious to find out.

From the "Cartridges of the World" bullets sized at .365 are related to the following:
9.3 x 53mm Swiss
9.3 x 53Rmm Swiss
9.3 x 57 Mauser
360 Express (2 1/4)
360 Nitro (2 1/4)
9.3 x 62mm Mauser
9.3 x 64mm Brenneke
9.3 x 72Rmm Sauer
9.3 x 74Rmm

It seems that 8.8 mm is about .348 as in .348 Winchester. It would appear that you may have a .348 Winchester. Do not fire a high pressure .348 Winchester cartridge in the rifle unless the chamber has been cast and measured by a gunsmith!

The diameter at the rear of the chamber would be very helpful to eliminate possibilities. How does the 38-55 fit there?

Bruce

The 360NE or 360 No2 is almost a 3" case. Shorter was the 369Purdey. Odd chamberings in a European gun if that's what you've got, but neither were straight walled. Without a chamber cast your just guessing ... for all you know you may have a 9.3x57R 'straight'. The 9.3x57R was referred to as a 'straight' case and appeared in a black powder/cast projectile load well before the 1900s which places it at about the right time for your rifle. It was very popular across Europe. This was a family of rimmed cartridges with cases of 48mm, 57mm, 70mm, 72mm, 80mm and 82mm. If its a 9.3x57R 'straight' ... original load used a 190gr lead projectile at 1225fps. It was also loaded with smokeless to 1700fps. There were also jacketed projectiles available. The head is 0.426" and it tapers to 0.386". If its chambered for this cartridge, you can make them from 9.3x72R trimmed down to length.
Cheers...
Con

"I have a rimmed, straight walled 9.xx"

The 348 is hardly straight walled. Base diameter of a 348 is .553, the 38-55 is .422, more than a tenth of an inch difference. A 38-55 would rattle in a 348 chamber. Besides a bullet fired in a .348 bore wouldn't come out with a diameter of .365

My guess would be 9.3x74R, but it's time for a chamber cast before any more firing. There are several 9.3 cartridges that are possibilities.

Well ... you learn something new every day. Just had a squizz at the CIP spec sheets for rimmed cases and there's a 360NitroExpress 2 1/4" that is straight walled. Case length is listed as 57.15mm with a rim diameter of 12.32mm. Pressure is listed as a Pmax of 2450bar. Those dimensions are pretty close to the 38/55 which may have caused confusion? Pressures for the 38/55 are listed as Pmax 2400bar.
Cheers...
Con

Thanks guys I really appreciate the information.

I�m linking up with EvilTwin tonight and we will check specs against his 9.3x72R cartridges. More to follow�.

diameter looked good but the 9.3x72R was about a half inch too long....I'm thinking 9.3x57R might be just the ticket....

I'm wondering whether the 9.3x57R 'straight' and the 360NitroExpress 2 1/4" are one and the same?
Cheers...
Con

I am no expert but I am beginning to think that is the case too.

Before you blow it up do a chamber cast with 'cerro-safe' bismouth alloy and measure the chamber!
Are the proof marks English or Belgium or what?

That's pretty funny Mike. Lots of Belgian proofs including a set of stamps on rifle side water table that say '38 55'

I can see why the seller was confused.

I don't think there is any danger of blowing the old girl up now that the proper bore size is established.

I just bought some 360 nitro express (9.3x57R) cases and projectiles and am eagerly awaiting their arrival. Now for dies....

Alot of the Belgium gns weren't the best quality so be carefull of working up max loads. Stick to listed speeds for that round.
I have several 9.3's but no X57's so I can't help with loads ect.
Good Luck.

360 NE 21/4 or 9,3x57R/360 are the most likely culprits.

Ross Seyfried wrote a very good piece on them and the 38-55 in Handloader no.225 October 2003 called "Miniature Black Powder Express Cartridge"
Handloader October 2003

Go buy it if you don't have it - I think you'll enjoy it! There's loads, history and some really nice guns!

Cheers
K9_75

Thanks K9 75!

I took a dozen or so photos of the proofs but need a better camera or better light to make them clear. So far I have identified 4 Belgian proofs. I see now where the prior owner got 38-55 from there are two stamps on the water table � one is a 38 and slightly to the right is 55. He assures me that he fired 38-55 through the gun. I see no evidence of damage and the action locks up tight, so this old girl was well built.

Here are the best pics I have so far. Found a fellow selling 9.3 projectiles and bought them. Now we just need to confirm the chamber length.

FYI, Buffalo Arms 9.3x57R cases (based off 30-40 Krag brass)are too long, BUT 38-55 cases with a .365 bullet (jacketed or cast) works just dandy with 8 grains of Red Dot. Now for hunting load developement!

Can you take better picture of the markings (including the numbers), this could allow to identify the gun and find out what was the original caliber.

Maybe you own a very fine piece of Liege craftmanship.

I'll work on getting better pics

Took lots of pics - these are teh best of them. Thanks for any help!

I've always wondered why European gunmakers have so many proofmarks and so few caliber designations on their guns.



You might find something matching in these cartridge lists.

http://www.megapathdsl.net/~dvivas/alex-dwm.html

http://www.ammunitionpages.com/download/408/German%20and%20Austrian%20headstamp%20codes.pdf



The markings on your rifle might be identified by someone here.

http://www.ecra.info/start.php

Bruce

Sorry Mssgn, I can't read all the marks on that picture.

You'll find here a list of identified Belgian (essentially from Liege) gunmakers (on the left column you find the marks they used to identify themselves, on the right column, their complete identification)

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/mallorquina/source/recherchedesmarques.htm

On that site can you also identify gun proof officer who tested the gun and year of production.

With those informations you could find more informations about the guns the gunmaker produced here: http://www.littlegun.be

If you can't find the caliber that way, you can contact "littlegun" by e-mail, I think you can contact them in English (if not, I can help), it's the best resource I know to find informations about old Belgian guns.

If it's OK for you I could post the pictures on the Belgian Gun owners section of a French forum.

Thank you both for the links, and yes feel free to post the photos anywhere you like. I would welcome any help.

I have found that it shoots fairly well with a 38-55 case loaded with a .366 bullet. The cases are a little shorter than necessary.

I am almost 100% positiv ethat it is 360 Nitro Express. I just rec'd my copy of cartridges of the world and checked all the measurements.I could not uinderstand why the 360 Nitro cartridges from Buffalo Arms didn't chamber - I thought they were too long. Turns out that they were NOT too long. They just needed sizing. The virgin brass was .421 wide at the base. It would not fully chamber. Resized to .4205 the 2 1/4 inch cases work just fine!

Confirmation - proof marks confirm it as a 360 Express aka 9.3x57R aka 360 BP Express:

"I can see only the usual Liege, Belgium blackpowder proofmarks! On the action flat there is the "Perron", the symbol of the City of Liege, and a "V under star", a Belgian inspectors personal stamp. Under the rifle barrel there is the "EL" blackpowder proofmark, The "ELG in oval under crown", the Liege proofhouse acceptance mark in use from 1893, and the "R under crown" which in Liege marks proof of a rifled barrel. "8.8"mm is the correct bore (not rifling or bullet!)diameter for both the 9.3x72R and it's forerunner, the 9.3x57R aka .360 BPExpress."

And cases and bullets from Buffalo arms produce VERY satisfactory results with mild smokeless powder loads

Now if I could just find dies to reload with, I'd be all set

Is it one of these:

CH4D:
http://www.ch4d.com/

search for 360

360 #5 Rook $ 78.25
360 2 7/16 $ 78.25
360 Black Powder Exp $ 156.60
360 Imperial Mag $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express #2 $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express 2.25 in. $ 78.25
360 Str. 2 7/16 2.437 $ 78.25
360 Wesley Richards No. 3 $ 109.57
400 - 360 Purdey $ 109.57
8 x 57 (.360) $ 78.25
9.3 x 72 (.360) $ 78.25

We have a winner! Thanks BCP!

OF COURSE it is the most expensive one listed!!!

360 Black Powder Exp $ 156.60


I'm going to have to check Cartridges of the word to see how much difference there is between that and 360 Nitro Express 2.25 in. for $ 78.25

.....

What's the last update on the fine piece?

I eventually confirmed it as 360 BPE and worked up a load that would shoot cloverleafs (straight walled 38-55 brass, 9.3 mm projectile and 18 garins of 2400).

After a few years I found that it wasnt getting used much and couldnt see tieing the cash up. Tried to sell it here and on other sites, left it in my local gun shop 6 months and eventually sold it for almost what I paid for it