Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .405 Win vs Cape Buff - who wins?

oh yeah!

John, what do you think of my "theory" of using 300gr TSXs @2250 as opposed to bonded bullets of 400gr at slower speeds?

I think they would kill a Cape buffalo pretty dead.

Well you learn something every day!

BTW my rifle is brand new and it is .413" groove diameter. The problem is with the solids which will tumble in a larger diameter bore.

I take it you meant the 300 TSXs. As you can see by the target I have them shooting pretty tight and given what I've seen regarding the TSXs penetrating, I should be good to go. Hell, TR and the Johnson's did it with crappy cup and core bullets! Anyhow, I have an email in to North Fork to see what it would cost me for a run of 300gr solids. Still taking the Rigby though.

Hey Bob, I love that photo and quote from TR!

I wonder if the .413" groove diameter might be because Win. thought there might be a fair number of cast bullets used in their rifles, even new ones. I've always been under the impression that the original 405 Win. called for .412" bullets. Could this be another reason for the odd groove diameter?

I stole that pic from this online article:

Personally, I prefer the Winchester
by Philip Schreier
American Rifleman, January 2001
http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_1895.shtml


I think you'll enjoy reading it.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

I think either the TSX or a 400 gr NF will shoot any buffalo on the planet dead as our economy. I'd pick your shot a little carefully, but that is more a function of open sights than the caliber. There is a DVD out called the "Mopani Collection - First Season" which has some great footage of Dave Scovill using his Turnbull Winchester (.450) on buff, hippo, and elephant. Besides, if you are planning to hunt with Hulk Hogan again, I presume he could strangle anything giving you trouble. Use it and tell us all about it.

Never thought about it, but John Sharpe does have that WWF thing going, doesn't he?

I think it was Gail Weintrab ( sorry about spelling) that described John as Tarzan. Gail is Harry Selby's daughter, so she is not easily impressed.

Jorge, you and either rifle are up to the task, but I, for one, understand taking a rifle proven in the jess previously. A lot of the fun comes with pre trip planning and dreaming. We know dreams are not theexclusive domain of the young.


Randy

You guys should go to Sharp's website and look at some of his other WWF pics in there. He's my age now (56) but he can still hurt you

On the bullets, I'll see what North Fork says about the solids, if they are not terribly outrageous, I might try them although I have complete confidence in those TSXs.

Might want to give Hawk Bullets a look:

http://hawkbullets.com/

I used them in my Jeffrey's last trip due to a shortage of Woodleigh's with good result. They come in various jacket thicknesses

No solids that I could see. Just returned from the range with the 405 (and the 257 Weatherby to keep my sanity ). Those TSXs continue to hold groups ~2"@100 to make me pretty well stop looking with the possible exception of solids. Let's be real guys, I'm only going to use this gun once, maybe twice in my life for a stunt like this. Domestic hunting for sure and I'll probably wear the barrel out shooting hogs, deer & bear but as a "go to" African caliber for DG, no way. At least it's a fast shooting lever and does not violate my "not with a single shot" rule.

Oh and I have that 257 cooking at almost 3700 and holding under 2"@ 200. With that and the Sharps, I'm ready for our late April Axis/hog Texas hunt!

This caliber thang has never been a problem with me, if it goes bang I have always made it work within reason..however I can get real picky about bullets and bullet construction..

I have shot a lot of buffalo on cull hunts with some very small calibers and some with some very bad ammo..A buffalo, like a bovine of any kind, can be killed with about any caliber, you just have to adjust your hunting style to fit the caliber..Finn Aagard told me of a 12 year old African that killed a sleeping buff by sticking a 22 Hornet behind his ear, and the bull never moved...Foolishness, carelessnes or just fate gets hunters killed or maimed when shooting dangerous game in 99% of the cases that I have reviewed.

If you get yourself in a charge situation, hopefully you will have good backup and a big ole rifle...Every charge I have been in a charge situation, my thought was I wish I had a 600 N.E. or something on that order instead of a 375, 9.3x62 or 450-400, but in reality I got them down with what I had because in the end its where you stick'em that counts.

My suggestion to my clients is shoot the largest caliber that you can handle recoil wise, the one that you can shoot like your varmint rifle or 22 L.R. with no thought of recoil...A 220 gr. 30-06 in the heart is deadly and beats the hell out of a 500 gr. 458 Lott in the gut and thats a proven fact.

Ray, I can't say I disagree with anything you've posted, but I think all of us know that. What I was specifically looking for and answered by a few here inclusing JB was as to the efficacy of the modern 300gr TSX @ 2250 fps vs a conventional cup and core bullet circa 1909 at similar velocities or a modern bonded of heavier weight (400gr) and lower velocity. The second component of the question was the option of considering a 300gr solid or even a NF CPS in it's place. We all know that a poorly placed shot is no substitute for bore size. Cheers, jorge

My son's Model 1895 .405 Winchester slugs out at .411"

I know many don't think much of cast bullets, but I find them pretty effective in more ways than one.

These 385 grain cast bullets sized to .412" run just over 1,900 fps with this load and could most likely go faster.

I guess you could call me ignorant, but I wouldn't hesitate shoot a buffalo with these loads. A guy could push a few through a big, tough old hog to see how they preformed if he had any doubts.

No doubt those would punch through like crap through a goose! can you share the load data?

JorgeI,
I concur and am sure a 300 gr. 40 caliber at 2200 plus would work well enough, if the shooter does his part and that even applies to the big N.E. rounds. My thinking was that one must be careful as to where you draw the line on DG cartridges, a mistake that I have made more than once.

I say this because already this thread has gone from a 300 gr. monolithic at 2250 to a 385 gr. cast lead at 1900 FPS and I am sure one could kill a buffalo with the cast lead, but one could easily get into trouble with it also, as it would be a slow killer and a charge could come about and that is not a stopping load..I have seen the 458 Win. fail for the same reason early on with those under loaded factory 500 gr. softs and solids! Just a point to bring up for whatever it's worth.

DG rounds begin at 2000 FPS with 500 gr. bullets in the 45 caliber..at 2200 FPS with 400 gr. bullets in the 40 caliber, 300 gr. bullets at 2500 FPS in the 375..The 405 with the short stubby 300 gr. at 2250 is borderline anyway you cut it, and the cast bullet is out from my point of view..

We are in the relm of stunt hunting, and I have done a bunch of that so cannot sit in judgment of those that do and I hold no malice to those hearty souls that do such things in a proper maner with good backup and are up to living with the results if they go bad.

My other issue is DG with the Win. Mod. 95, the slowest loading rifle every manufactured, and that is really dangerous. Even old Teddy carried two of them...If one had a Ruger no. 1 in .405 I suspect he could easily duplicate the 450-400 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2200 FPS with safe pressures.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

It is plenty, IMO.

I had two fall to a 9,3X74R with 286 Woodleigh solids at 2,280 fps. Shot placement has no substitute.

Then that leaves out the 450/400 @ 2100.
The 300gr 411 TSX is LONGER than the 400gr Woodleigh and I think it will penetrate better, certainly at over 100 fps faster.

Stunt hunting, no doubt and I said that from the start. As to slow reloading, I'm not seeing it. Been practicing with the 1895 and I can load it as fast as my 416 and besides it carries five down plus one in the chamber and if I can't get it done with that I'm in the wrong sport. jorge

Good looking bullet.Whats the details please? Thank you