Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Do Exposed Lead Tips of Bullets Melt During Flight?

When the space shuttle is re-entering the atmosphere it isn't flying in a "clean configuration". The shuttle, unlike a stabilized bullet, is flying in a nose up attitude, IIRC around 40 degrees. As far as the blackbird, it's the time element involved. You think they look neat on the ground, you should see one in trail behind a tanker waiting for a fill up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Too many variables involved to be able to construct a "mathematical" proof.

No one have any suggestions as to how to construct an experiment? It seems to me that the believers aren't going to convince the unbelievers (and vice versa), and the hard core center (like me) isn't going to be persuaded either way..... FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch, the evidence is out there. Vaughn did some experiments on core slippage. Though the muzzle velocities weren't as fast as some of those stated here, He didn't mention any sign of core meltdown. All that is needed is a high speed Thermography camera to capture a bullet in flight. A little out of my price range!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The term "hot lead" was apparently coined from talking to people that have been shot. They stated that they felt a hot sensation in the area of the bullet strike.

No need to do it the hard way. All we need is to fly a lead tip bullet for a long ways starting at a very high speed, and catch it without upsetting it. Weigh before and after, and we have a definitive answer.

I wonder if cotton candy would work? Styrofoam? Hmm..... I feel an experiment coming on.

Alternatively, if we have an accurate enough scale, we could fire it into a bullet trap, and weight both. Hard to account for vapor, though. FWIW, Dutch.

Please excuse the fact that I have not read the whole thread. I"m a highpower shooter and we pull pit duty a bunch. Seemingly mostly at mid range(600) and long ranget(800-1000) we get the most "wild hits" These are bullets that for some reason bounce, destabilize etc.. and end up in the pits with us. Normally they are bthp bullets. I have been dumb enough to try to pickup a bthp right after it hits the frame sideways and lands at my feet. As have a few others that I know. Its too tempting and happens before you think. I can say that its extremely hot. Hot enough to burn you if you don't drop it instantly(which normally happens but usually leaves a bit of an imprint) I can say that I've never seen lead come out as in fluid out of the HP cavity though our cavities- actually the meplat or opening to the cavities-is very small on a ballistic type HP bullet.

The only other somewhat educated information I can add to the subject is that I have used and others have also used lead tipped bullets for practice short range matches at 200 and 300 yards. Every so often someone comes up with a keyhole hit on the paper. Its very evident that the bullet as it passes through the paper, has a full profile including the lead tip nose.

As I said, I'm in a bit of a hurry and was not able to read all the posts so this info is probably already in the thread, but just in case I'll toss it out (probably)again.

Now as to the blue puffs seen-- I"ve witnessed that a few times and others have seen it from my rifle a number of times at one point. I can't say that anything melted, but I can truly say that its a blue/gray puff with a bullet disentegrates due to overrotation(also). I know it was over rotation since I was shooting a super fast twist in 223 with light short bullets that each last one failed in a 22 shot match. I had driven 4 hours and left my ammo at home. And a barrel made to stabilize 90s ended up trying to shoot thin jacketed 64 grain flat base bullets driven really fast. 22 misses.

Best, Jeff

Jeff, Art touched on the subject in a prior post. In the origional post the bullet was concidered in stable flight. I would think that in your situation the bullets, for what ever reason were in unstable flight. I've heard bullets do neat things when they slow from supersonic speeds. Isn't that why highpower shooters prefer the 175gr's over the 168's at 1000 yards? Bullet may be hot to the touch, but 180 degrees will leave red marks, not enough to melt lead.

have never witnessed a bullet going supersonic. All my eyes have seen are over rotation puffs. But yes I hear they do weird things when leaving the supersonic world. Its one reason I never tried 168s in my M1As years ago. It was old 180 bthps. Way prior to 175s coming out.

And yes I agree on the bullet temp issue-- I suspect I was trying to say they were pretty hot to the touch but not some superheated issue that would instantly burn your flesh down towards the bone.

Will have to make time to read backwards one day when its less busy.

Jeff

After reading through all this I"ve got a few more comments.

1. What chemical test was performed to prove that the "molten lead comet tail" was actually lead at all and not another byproduct of firing the round. As noted I see odd things as have others around their holes. Things that appear lead like but can be resultant of other issues. I once put paint on bullets since we saw these rings without anything on a bullet. I was trying to show a colored ring in a black target face for quick recognition in matches during rapid fire. Put orange paint pen on bullets. Left partial orange ring around bullet hole on paper.......

2. Sierra and Hornady dont' know everything. They are just common folks like us. I've called a few times and they've just said we dont' know. Good luck. So I work up loads on my own after that point for wildcats.

3. Assuming that lead melts at 600+ F we could also assume that had the target been tested to prove lead, then the target would also show signs of burning paper and the related chemicals from being lit. Having spilled a bit of molten lead along the years, any time it encounters cardboard(assuming paper would be the same) it will ignite it instantly. So even if it burns and is out right away there should be chemical evidence. Just seeing a mark there is no way to tell what made the mark. Only assumption and that proves nothing. Regardless to anyones opinion from the president and pope on downward.

4. I think that sometimes when folks show evidence rather than calculations it is better proof. And certainly better than what others just simply claim.

5. I know bullets come apart from over rotation. Thats a given. Whether they melt or not would seemingly be easy to prove by these chemical tests-- especially assuming a jacketed bullet.

6. I know a fellow that had the misfortune to have a house fire. Very hot. Had literally thousands of Sierra bullets in the garage. They melted the cores under assumption due to intense (over 6XX F). When he took them out to test fire they would not hold a 2 foot square target paper at 100 yards. I take that to mean that if the bullets are melting they cannot even be close to accurate then.

7. Now we have accubond bullets out. Heated up to bond to the jackets a bit better. And they are proven on game to hold together better than just swaged core bullets. If these cores are melting in flight I'd bet they would be detaching from the jacket and not perform as well. Or would they melt in flight and form a better bond to the jacket?

8. In the end I won't say this or that is impossible. But you could prove it to me by what is proven, not what is calculated. Either way. And I could believe that while many folks have seen bullets with tips totally intact, that there could be a few found with tips melted off. But you'd have to show this to me, not simply a ring around a hole.

PS I may have looked right past links to photos and may stand corrected in the future.

Best, Jeff

Hi all,

Fascinating thread... Here's an easy experiment someone can try to put this to rest. I'd try it myself and report the results, but I don't have anything that will push a bullet fast enough. If somebody wants to give me a rifle... Anyway, here's the experiment. There are non-reversible temperature indicating paints out there that turn color to indicate the temperature range they got to. Get some and paint the tips of lead and plastic tipped bullets, shoot them, recover them, look at the paint color and determine what temperature they got to. Since we are talking highly frangible varmint type bullets the shots are going to have to be long to keep the bullets from coming apart on target. Shoot into water filled milk jugs to make recovery easier? Volunteers?

Ah but are we talking frangible bullets only? If lead melts, it should melt in an accubond, regular everyday bullets, and in frangible ones.

Where do you obtain that paint?

Of course you could try any type of bullet... I'm still looking for someone to give me a rifle so I can do the experiment; I'll try whatever bullets you want...

McMaster-Carr has it at http://www.mcmaster.com/ - look under temperature indicating crayons and labels. Omega has a product called Omegalaq at http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/frameset.html?book=Temperature&file=LAQ . I'm sure a quick search on the web would turn up other sources.

Another point about where the energy goes during the flight of the bullet that has not been addressed is the vacuum at the base of the bullet during flight. Just adding a boattail to a bullet reduces energy loss by about 10% (according to the Nosler number 4 book) That is a 10% reduction in the energy lost. It is not an indicator of the total energy lost to the bullet base. None of that energy is being converted to heat at the bullet tip, obviously.

Like it was pointed out, there is minimal energy lost at the 100 yard mark and when energy lost to different places starts getting added up it becomes more obvious all the time that the tips cannot melt. I really like the heat indicating paint idea.
maytag

@ Rost's #6:

Bullets, especially hollow point match bullets, have a core that doesn't fill the jacket. If they had melted and then hardened again, the lead would have settled to one side of the bullet (the bottom). They would have been tremendously "unconcentric" when cooled. FWIW, Dutch.

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. Many years ago I loaded some JHP, .357, 125 grain bullets into my .357 Herret and asked my compadre Ed Siemon to spot for me. Toi make a long story short the bullets didn't melt - but they did explode into a mist of gray dust on their way tio the target. Too much speed and rotation at h9gh speed for the thin jacket to hold together - and the core expanded on the air due, we think, to the resistance of the air in the hollow point. My btarget had "smoky" holes and grains of rough gray stuff all over the place. Sound familiar?

Bluesman

I've often read of this kind of thing (disintegrating bullets) but haven't experienced it. Here's a link to several links going into the "disappearing bullet" problem:

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_usubject=disappearing+bullets

Enjoy!

Its very well documented that they disentegrate at times.

Whats unproven is this silly notion that they melt in flight.

Only comment is about "hard" versus "soft" lead bullets. Soft lead bullets are pure lead, and if my 30 year old physical chemistry class was right, impure substances ALWAYs melt at a LOWER temperature than pure.

OldBadger, don't think that is correct. There are a class of materials known as eutectics(sp) that don't behave that way. You should have learned not to say ALWAYS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .Rick.

If the lead tip melted the lead inside the bullet would also melt and the bullet would become unbalanced and unaccurate

I have a question, and please....don't flame me

I was reading this thread, and found it to be very interesting at 3am CST. I did see one thing not mentioned. Mind you I'm not the strongest in the math department, and this may be included in some of the calculations

#1 - Does humidity have any effect on the bullet, cooling, not cooling etc.

#2 Does atmospheric content come into effect. Are some points of the earth's atmosphere distant enough in composition to have an effect

#3 Is density, and atmospheric pressure different enough to facilitate any type of change. For instance. Would someone in Death Valley, Someone at sea level, and someone say 250-1000 feet above sea level experience any measureable differences.

Just my $0.02, but it seems that there may be some chance as to some sort of lead melting and spraying off, especially if the bullet is marred or something to that effect, and as said a split jacket may produce some sort of liquification for a breif instance. I am more of a science guy though, and the comment that struck me the most is that the target was not chemically tested. The halo could have been the bullet coming apart, powder residue, or pieces of the jacket. If and when the bllet begins to disintegrate. the pieces of lead are not as aerodynamically efficient as the bullet whole. Is it possible for the fragments to heat and slightly deform before impacting on the target. This would explain the apperance of "something that looked like molten lead."

Common sense says no. The time in flight is just to short to melt the entire tip, or entire core. I think the pieces of lead deforming as they fragment may have some validity, but it's hard to say or measure something the size of one of those little Hershey crunch clusters moving a mile every 1.2 seconds or so

Andrew