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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have not used or tested a 9mm in a long time. With all of the new ammo out I thought it was time to give it another go, because of post like this one Yeah, I know. People aren't made of sand and expansion reduces penetration. I've shot a lot of handgun bullets into varying substances and I've found that reliable expansion does not exist below about 1,000 fps, no matter what the test medium, although I've never tested any in balistic gel or on humans. I've shot cap and ball .451 RBs that expanded nicely in sand and I've seen a lot of HPs that wouldn't expand in anything. I shot one of these XTPs in clay cat litter. It did not expand at all and penetrated about 8". What these pics do prove is that the XTP expands better in sand than the Remington JHP. I also shot 2 liter pop bottles filled with water with both these rounds. The XTPs busted them pretty good. The Remingtons had the same effect as FMJs. Also, I set a piece of cardboard behind the bottles to see how much expansion I was getting. The holes in the cardboard matched the bullets pictured above. I purchased a box of Fiocchi loaded with the Hornady 124 grain XTP/JHP. Yes , they do expand well, but not excessively and they penetrate rather well. In the past excellent expansion meant less than optimal penetration and excellent penetration meant less than stellar wound channels. So I felt a lack of love for the 9mm. Well that seems to have changed the Fiocchi loads with the 124 grain XTP does appear to give good penetration coupled with reliable expansion. I intend to do more testing, but the early results look promising
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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When the only 9mm's out there were full sized guns I could not feel any love for a 9mm. Now that we have them in 15oz pocket pistols and new ammo developments I can see a great niche. Been following Alan Jones' reports on new ammo developments and it looks like the Horny Critical Defense stuff is the best thing going right now. Going to give some a try out in my Kel Tech pocket gun and the wifes Colt Cobra 38.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Campfire Outfitter
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jwp, Did you happen to chrono those loads and what length barrel were you using?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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jwp, Did you happen to chrono those loads and what length barrel were you using? I tried to, but for some reason I could not get a reading. I tried several different caliber trying to get a reading, but all I got was error Will try again as time permits These 124 grain XTP's exited 3 one gal milk jugs of water. I asked a couple of guys that are familar with this sort of testing how many jugs would it take to catch one and both answered 2. Well 3 wasn't enough. I do have 1 recovered bullet and I liked the expansion. I will get more jugs and see how many it takes, but 3 jugs is not bad at all
Last edited by jwp475; 10/29/10.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 21,959
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have not used or tested a 9mm in a long time. With all of the new ammo out I thought it was time to give it another go, because of post like this one Yeah, I know. People aren't made of sand and expansion reduces penetration. I've shot a lot of handgun bullets into varying substances and I've found that reliable expansion does not exist below about 1,000 fps, no matter what the test medium, although I've never tested any in balistic gel or on humans. I've shot cap and ball .451 RBs that expanded nicely in sand and I've seen a lot of HPs that wouldn't expand in anything. I shot one of these XTPs in clay cat litter. It did not expand at all and penetrated about 8". What these pics do prove is that the XTP expands better in sand than the Remington JHP. I also shot 2 liter pop bottles filled with water with both these rounds. The XTPs busted them pretty good. The Remingtons had the same effect as FMJs. Also, I set a piece of cardboard behind the bottles to see how much expansion I was getting. The holes in the cardboard matched the bullets pictured above. I purchased a box of Fiocchi loaded with the Hornady 124 grain XTP/JHP. Yes , they do expand well, but not excessively and they penetrate rather well. In the past excellent expansion meant less than optimal penetration and excellent penetration meant less than stellar wound channels. So I felt a lack of love for the 9mm. Well that seems to have changed the Fiocchi loads with the 124 grain XTP does appear to give good penetration coupled with reliable expansion. I intend to do more testing, but the early results look promising JWP, I would sure be interested in hearing about your final results. 
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm pushing 147gr XTP's at 1100 fps in my Glock17.
I'm loading Unique, QL calc's pressure about 37K. That's about halfway between standard 9mm, and 9mm+P.
Power Pistol would probably be a better powder, but since I have a bunch of Unique, that's what I'm using.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Anybody ever tried blue dot?
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anybody ever tried blue dot? I tried it a long time ago, before I ever had a chronograph, so I can't give any velocities for those loads.They were using the old Speer 100 gr. and 125s, from the Speer #9, IIRC. But, big BUT, Herco and HS-6 were better, snappier loads using the same bullets. Herco gives great velocities but meters like mud, HS-6 is a ball powder and meters like water. Both have similar burning rates in a 9mm, generally speaking, and give about the same speeds with the same charges. I'd go with either of those powders over Blue Dot, given a choice.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm pushing 147gr XTP's at 1100 fps in my Glock17.
I'm loading Unique, QL calc's pressure about 37K. That's about halfway between standard 9mm, and 9mm+P.
Power Pistol would probably be a better powder, but since I have a bunch of Unique, that's what I'm using.
Shane, That ain't bad at all. I don't currently load for my G19, but if I did, I would sure give the XTP a whirl.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Campfire Outfitter
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~ Well, 'Ballistic Experts' sure do know their stuff, and certainly know 'stuff' moreso (than I do) and the average potential 'maniacal' bad-guy encountered threat.
But, If I ever needed to to defend my self with a handgun - against some threatening armed 'human' threat ...
I would be more than grateful to have a lowly 9MM Pistol in my hand, even loaded with only my Winchester White Box Target Loads.
Heck, I'd even settle for my Beretta 'Tomcat' 32 acp in a pinch. Otherwise, the only weapon I ALWAYS 'carry' ... is my jack-knife.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Herco is THE powder in 9mm. I try to get at least 1250 fps out of my handloads.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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JWP-475.....I did test the 9mm Luger a year ago with "self-defense" ammo of several brands. We used soaking wet newspaper, gives better indication of wound channel etc.
Brands of bullets used, were the Hornady, Cor-Bon, Pow - R -Ball, Double Tap, Winchester and Federal. The 9mm Luger caliber with Cor-Bon did very well, as did the Pow R Ball ammo, which was the highest in velocity. Ths ammo gives a wound channel inside the wet news print, like a bomb exploded inside the target. I traded for a Kahr 9mm and I have Cor-Bon and Pow R Ball loaded in the magazine clip.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What about the penetration? Expansion iis fine as long as penetration is adequate
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For what it is worth the Speer 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot Plus P is the load i use in my Kahr P9. I have never had to shoot another human but believe this load would get the job done.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Same load I am carrying in my Kel Tech. Hope every one of those rounds goes unfired.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Campfire Tracker
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Jwp475....Now as I remember, the 9mm Luger with Cor-Bon self-defense loads penetrated some 5.75 inches into that soaking wet (dripping wet) newpaper that was bundled tightly together.
The .45acp 200grn self-defense ammo did like 7 inches and the 230 grn hardball did 7.75 inches. The .40 cal with self-defense Pow R Ball ammo did 6.25 inches but made a bigger wound channel.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Regular
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Whatever ballistic problems the 9x19 Luger had have been fixed. The Cartridge is ONE HUNDRED YEARS OLD!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Gun Tests magazine did some 9mm ammo testing not long ago. They also confered with some that have actually used some of this in gunfights. They gave high marks to both Speer's Gold Dot bullet loads and Hornady's XTP's.
Yes, the 9mm Lugar round has come a long way thanks to the development of good, reliable, expanding bullets. E
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Ask a Paramedic sometime if someone shot with a 9mm is any less dead than being shot with a 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, or any other common handgun cartridges.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ask a Paramedic sometime if someone shot with a 9mm is any less dead than being shot with a 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, or any other common handgun cartridges. I think the idea isn't so much to make the guy dead by the time the paramedics get to him, as to take the fight out of him right now. In that respect, some calibers are probably better than others.
Mathew 22: 37-39
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Campfire Ranger
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Paramedics don't shoot people. They treat or try to treat those who have been shot.
The heavier, larger bore rounds have the advantage of doing better against targets that are heavily clothed, behind doors, inside cars, or even behind walls. That and they punch a bigger hole in their target.
That's not to say that the smaller, medium bore stuff don't work, they do. But they don't have the performance edge that the heavier rounds do. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Ask a Paramedic sometime if someone shot with a 9mm is any less dead than being shot with a 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, or any other common handgun cartridges. A shot that penetrates the brain or heart will certainly in most cases be fatal. But the fact is that a perfectly placed shot in a gun fight is rare. The target is usually moving, taking cover and shoot at you. A larger caliber that leaves a larger wound channel is definitely an advantage, how much of an advantage is impossible to determine
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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JWP475;
I have to have to have my daughter read this.
Thanks for the work. I got a 41AE kit for my daughters HP. She liked to shoot a LOT. So she just stayed with the 9mm.
Before she was shooting a lot at age maybe 10, she would watch cartoons and resize and deprime the 9mm with a Lee nutcracker.
Wanted a Bisley only in a blackhawk, but just loved that Belgian Browning.
The 41AE was my idea, a switch caliber gun is always fun.
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Ask a Paramedic sometime if someone shot with a 9mm is any less dead than being shot with a 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, or any other common handgun cartridges. I think the idea isn't so much to make the guy dead by the time the paramedics get to him, as to take the fight out of him right now. In that respect, some calibers are probably better than others. Those Studies have been done... Published and quoted numerous times. Unless it's a head or cervical spine shot, I doubt the certainty to "STOP" with a single shot from a 9mm or a 45ACP.
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Campfire Tracker
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Idahoguy-101, you need only to look at the FBI run tests to find out real quick like, just what is a ONE SHOT STOPPER!!!
The calibers in .44mag, 41mag are considered ONE SHOT stoppers.
Now for the sake of those who carry a CCW permit and their pistols, The .40cal. Smith & Wesson with 180 grain bullet fills the requirement for the FBI. As does the .45acp with 230 grain bullets. Not to mention the 10mm caliber with 200 grain bullets!
Last edited by Tonk; 11/16/10.
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All
UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN
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To everyone on this Post
I re-read my post. I apologize for sounding like a know-it-all ass.
I have worked Trauma Center ER's and as an EMT. My training and experience is guns and cartridges don't kill people. Broken body parts do.
Stopping power with handguns in wounds that are NOT immediately fatal is more of a psychlogical factor. The physiology of trauma is seperate than the WILL to keep fighting.
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