Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles You don't need a primer to have powder release energy.

Jn316's post about an overload taking an 03 apart sent me looking back in my old Handloaders for an interesting (but tragic) account. In issue#111, there is an account in The Reloader's Press about an incident that took place at a benchrest meet. A competitor had a PPC round chamber with difficulty. He fired off this round and then encountered difficulty seating a second round. He could only get the bolt handle about half-way down. At this point, he tapped up the bolt handle and forced it back. This resulted in the extractor tearing away a small bit of the case. He retired to a work area where he put the rifle in a vise, removed the bolt and attempted to tap the round out of the chamber with a cleaning rod. At the third tap (no hammer or other tool used) the round exploded. Although the bullet was impaled on the end of the rod, he held onto the rod, but was nearly knocked off his feet. The tragedy was that the rear, unsupported portion of the case blew off and hit his wife in the abdomen. She later died at a hospital. Examination of the recovered fragments showed that the primer had not ignited. The writer (I'm not sure who, but it looks like it was Dave Wolfe) opened himself up to the ridicule that I spoke of in my note to Jn316 by stating that the powder appeared to have detonated. (Again, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Wolfe, but continue to have a burr under my blanket about the snit-fit that some throw over the use of the word "detonated." I note that further along in the account, Bruce Hodgdon commits the same perceived faux pas by stating that almost any smokeless powder can be detonated by a hard blow.) I found this whole episode very interesting. I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of the occurance and could provide follow-up as to anything that might have been resolved about it or if anyone knew of any similar happenings.

5s,

Kinda makes one wonder about using a kinetic bullet puller.

Tony

hi-c - it certainly does. I remember one of the better-known writers (I think that it might have been Layne Simpson, but I do not want to say for sure) who had a round go off while hammering. Seems like it was in G&A or ST a number of years ago, but I could be wrong on that as well. His conclusion was that any bullets that couldn't be pulled with a collet-style puller weren't going to get pulled around his house. Of course, for me, that would mean that they definitely would not get pulled because I have had about a 5% success rate using a collet puller. (Never have used an inertia.)

I've frequentlly warned against using an inertia or kinetic bullet-puller. In those warnings, I've cited known instances of rounds firing as a result of a blow on the bullet, including the instance mentioned above. I've known � fortunately, always from a distance � of several similar firings, in a rifle, loading dies, and kinetic pullers.

But after my warnings, getting all the tar and feathers off my ol' bod took vigorous use of a ki-yi brush and gallons of turpentine. The angry consensus of many respondents was the idea that "it hasn't happened to me, so you're full of s__t, Ken." Others wrote that indeed it had happened to them, too, but our warnings were always dismissed as strictly minority "opinion," "illusion," or out-and-out lies.

Nobody's blinder than the guy who squinches his eyes shut.

(Stuff your tar and feathers � it happens.)

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There's several of us here that have had primers go off while pounding the crap out of a kinetic puller. My kinetic puller didn't get a second chance to do damage.....

5s- you're only able to pull 5% of the bullets using a collet? Are they moly-coated or have you previously tried pulling coated bullets with the same collet? That's the only instance where I've had trouble using the collet pullers.

wtinmt - no moly - I just can't seem to get a grip (on life in general and on bullets in particular) - I think that my puller is a Forster (got it from a friend) - once in a great while I do get a bullet pulled, so I really can't figure out what I am doing wrong the rest of the time, but given my mechanical aptitude, I am sure that there is something that I am not doing right - usually end up with scrap leather to protect the press threads and a pliers - any advice would be most welcome - thanks

Ken, take comfort in the fact that though they may use an inertia puller ten thousand times with no ill effects IF it ever happens to them they will become instant believers.

Been there done that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />


BCR

I don't give half a sick gnat's phardt for what may befall the intentionally blind, but I'm almost pathologically concerned about the effect that their vociferous refutations of sane warnings have on others who see the one or few quiet warnings and the many loud denials and therefrom assume that "majority rule" establishes fact rather than just preference of options.

This concern leads me to post less and less helpful, edifying information that I know or suspect may lead to a volume of vociferous opposition and denial that'll lead innocent readers to conclude blandly, blindly that such information is a pile of horse apples.

I've even abandoned forums where the volume of such vociferous denunciation and denial has doomed further postings of useful information. I do not want my posts to be the initial attention that leads from a little good information to a greater, louder negative that more than cancels the value of the original post.

Several have misinterpreted all this as hypersensitivity to criticism on my part. It's merely applied practicality, with nothing whatever to do with personal feelings.

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5sdad,
I use the Forster puller, and if you don't have the lock ring tight against the press, the body will slip and you will not be able to get a good grip on the bullet. Try tightening that ring up, and you will be able to put enough force on the bullet to get any of them out, crimped or not.

I've had a kinetic puller bounce a round off. It scared the living hell out of me, and that thing is on my wall to remind me of how dangerous this hobby can be if I do stupid stuff.

Never had a kinetic puller discharge a round, but I'm sure it could happen. I no longer use one, since the collet system works so well for me. I have collets in every diameter I could possibly need, and use it when I have rounds I want to disassemble. In the case of lacquered-in military bullets, I simply set up my seating die to "pop" the seal by seating slightly deeper, and then pull with the collet type puller. Regards, Eagleye.

Detonation � An explosive reaction that consists of the propagation of a shock wave through the explosive accompanied by a chemical reaction that furnishes energy to sustain the shock propagation in a stable manner, with gaseous formation and pressure expansion following shortly thereafter.

I don't know if the "detonations" mentioned in the original post were truly detonations or not. I don't have a problem when a technical term is used in a not entirely correct fashion in order to get a point across. If someone describes an event as rapid combustion with damaging overpressures would the general public understand that explanation vs saying there was an explosion? Perhaps the event wasnt' traveling fast enough for a true explosion or detonation to have occured, but if something goes boom and pieces are scattered about, it sure looks like an explosion.

I've never used an inertial puller, it seems like an intrinsically bad idea. I have used an RCBS collet puller successfully. I've had some rounds that required enough force on the collet to damage the bullets. If they really don't want to come out, there are always vice grips. Yep, it destroys the bullet, it beats the heck out of a load that would destroy a gun, or worse yet hurt somebody.

You can lead a horse to water....and sometimes you have to drown the stupid bugger.

Some folks will never learn. We all just have to pray they dont reproduce.

"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."
(Dorothy Parker) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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CAS - thanks for the idea. Naturally, I assume that I have had the ring tight, but as is often the case, I cannot say for certain. Will try it the next time I screw up a load. Again, thanks.

Ken, please check in at any time with any information that might divert me from a path that has the potential for disaster. I for one appreciate it. Best, John

I've always wondered about that. How did someone determine that? By looking at the outside of the primer cup by eye-ball, or by examining (under magnification) inside to see whether the priming [/i]compound[/i] was still intact between the cup and the anvil? Was the bottom of the primer pocket clean or black with soot? Had the case been fired before? Lots of unanswered questions here.

Primers have to be sensitive to impact or vibration yet able to withstand a pretty strong steady push. In the instances that I've known of, I've always assumed that the primer fired, ignited by transferred vibration from the impact delivered by the hammer or mallet. This assumption still makes sense to me, given the necessary nature of normal primers. Also, I believe that the great blow that Bruce mentioned would have to be greater than a simple hammer blow on a cleaning rod or drift punch against the nose of the bullet.

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[quote
I've always assumed that the primer fired, ignited by transferred vibration from the impact delivered by the hammer or mallet. This assumption still makes sense to me, given the necessary nature of normal primers. [/quote]

Certainly sounds logical. I've always wondered about a high anvil in the primer. Would the impact be enough to allow the cup and priming compound to go forward with enough force to crush the compound into the anvil.

Or on a slightly shallow seated primer would there be enough inertia to seat it sharply against a shallow seated anvil?



BCR

5s- I just raise the ram until the case mouth contacts the collet, then tighten the collet and sharply move the press handle to pull the bullet. Did it work for the person you got it from? You might try cleaning the collet with some solvent to increase gription.

One other thing that might help: If the bullet has been loaded a long time they sometimes sorta weld themselves and are hell to pull. If you put them in your seating die and seat them just a little deeper it will "break" the seal and should be easier to pull. Hope this helps!

Lefty