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#4631159 - 11/25/10 Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme
Brazos_Jack Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 156
Loc: Texas/Saudi Arabia
Im hoping Mule Deer will weigh in on this.

Im planning on switching to the most temperature insensitive propellants I can for most of my rifle cartridge reloading. This has me considering standardizing on several Hodgdon Extreme Powders, Some of the cartridges I will be loading for, like the 9.3x62 and 6.8 SPC, are volumetrically challenged, which make the denser ball powders, like the RamShot line, attractive.

In terms of temperature sensitivity, how do the RamShot powders compare to the Hodgdon Extreme powders?

Hodgdon H4350 vs Ramshot Hunter

Hodgdon Varget vs Ramshot Big Game

Hodgdon H4895 vs Ramshot TAC

Hodgdon H322 vs Ramshot X-Terminator

Brazos_Jack
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#4631269 - 11/25/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Brazos_Jack]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
I haven't tested H322 or X-Terminator in cold, so I don't know about them.

The Hodgdon Extremes are overall the most consistent powders in cold temps that I've tested, but in my tests TAC and Big Game did just about as well as the Extremes. Hunter (and Ramshot) didn't do quite as well, but were still very good.

That said, according to a very experienced lab technician, temp-stability can change depending on the cartridge and application. He used the word "stressed" when describing what happens to a supposedly temp-stable powder when the powder is used outside it's normal uses.

He gave the specific example of Varget with 140-grain bullets in the .260 Remington. Varget wouldn't be the "best" Extreme powder to use with 140's. Instead the best choice would probably be H4350. In that application, he said, Varget loses some temp-stability.

I've used quite a bit of Ramshot TAC, Big Game, Hunter and Magnum when hunting here in Montana in cold weather, and all have done very well--as my chronograph tests indicated they should.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#4631339 - 11/25/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
fish head Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 15996
Loc: Colorado Front Range
"That said, according to a very experienced lab technician, temp-stability can change depending on the cartridge and application. He used the word "stressed" when describing what happens to a supposedly temp-stable powder when the powder is used outside it's normal uses".


Vhtavuori had posted the same/similar findings in regards to temp-stability on their website. It's very cartridge specific as to just how stable a given powder is. I don't know if it's still on the website or not.

Just trying to add a little something JB.

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#4631364 - 11/25/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: fish head]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Thanks for the additional info!

When I've run my own cold-tempeature tests, I've tested cartridge/bullet combos that are very well suited to the powders, such as TAC and Benchmark with 50-grain bullets in the .223, or H4350 and Hunter with 100-grain bullets in the .257 Roberts.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#4631520 - 11/25/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
denton Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 7943
Loc: Utah
The mechanism of MV variation with temperature is that cold steel, lead, and brass rob more energy from the propellant gas than hot steel, lead, and brass do. Different chamber surface areas and cartridge case masses require different compensations for initial temperature. JB is absolutely correct that a powder that compensates very well in one cartridge will likely compensate poorly in another.
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The considerate hunter will carry three cartridges afield. Two are for comrades who have lost or forgotten theirs. The third, of course, is for the hunter's own game.

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#4632015 - 11/25/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: denton]
AaroninMT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 130
John,

The one variable I question is primers. I noticed that often Ramshot load data shows standard primers over magnum primers.

I started out before hunting season with an Accurate ball powder in my 7-08 and standard primers. In the warmer weather it was a 1/2" combination, but when got cold it opened up. Out of concern I switched to a stick powder.

If I had started with magnum primers, would I have been more likely to maintain groups in different temperatures?

Aaron

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#4632191 - 11/26/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: AaroninMT]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
It would have been something to try, for sure.

I sometimes find magnum primers make an accuracy difference with Ramshot powders even at "normal" temperatures.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#4633012 - 11/26/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Brazos_Jack Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 156
Loc: Texas/Saudi Arabia
Thanks John,

The density of Big Game should definitely make it easier to get enough powder under a 250gr NAB or 286gr NP in a 9.3x62 than with Varget for top velocities.

Xterminator looks like a good way to get enough powder under a 110gr or 115gr for a good whitetail load in 6.8 SPC. I just hope its temperature stable enough to be consistent in all conditions.
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Brazos Jack


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#4633227 - 11/26/10 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Brazos_Jack]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
I haven't found Big Game to have any advantage with 250's in the 9.3x62, but it's definitely a top powder with 286's.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312185 - 06/07/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Genehunter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 109
In my CZ550FS, a recent experiment with 9.3X62 250 grain NAB and 63.5 grains of Big Game with WLR primers gave good results. Would you recommend I play with magnum primers to optimize for hunting temperatures ~5 - 10 degrees below freezing?

Many thanks!

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#5312204 - 06/07/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Genehunter]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
The only time I use magnum primers with Ramshot powders in standard cartridges is if I'm not getting the accuracy desired with regular primers. WLR primers are pretty hot anyway, so I'd just stick with your load.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312215 - 06/07/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Genehunter]
prm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 5330
I've been researching this on the interweb because I'm I have two good loads, one with 8208 XBR and another with TAC and am inclined to go with TAC if it's reasonably temperature insensitive. From what I've been able to dig up it seems to be pretty good. However, all the comments have been subjective and I haven't read any actual tests/samples to state actual changes across a temp range.

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#5312229 - 06/07/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Genehunter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 109
Many thanks!

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#5312256 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Genehunter]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
You're welcome!

What sort of velocity and accuracy are you getting?
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312282 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Colin_Matchett Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 782
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Mule Deer, how does Reloader 15 stack up against Varget, Big Game, Tac, etc in terms of temperature sensitivity? I recently started trying RL 15 in my 308 with 150's and 165's and accuracy has been stellar compared to Varget and IMR. 4895. Some say RL15 is very temp sensitive and others say it isn't. Any thoughts? The majority of my shots are well under 200 yards and a 300 yard shot would be rare where I hunt. Thanks!
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John Barsness, The Life of the Hunt

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#5312367 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Colin_Matchett]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Colin,

In my experience RL-15 is the most temp-resistant of the Reloder series, but in my tests Varget, Big Game and TAC are better in most cartridges.

But as I have pointed out now and then, if you're shooting at shorter ranges (and out to 300 would qualify) then the big factor is where the bullets land. If there's no significant difference in point of impact at various temperatures, then you're good to go!
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312430 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Colin_Matchett Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 782
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Thanks!
_________________________
"I am at heart a meat hunter."
John Barsness, The Life of the Hunt

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#5312570 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Colin_Matchett]
prm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 5330
I plan to get some readings in real high temps this summer with TAC, H4895, 8208 XBR, Leverevolution and 2000MR and then repeat on a relatively cold day next winter. Wonder if keeping rounds iced and then chambering them and shooting quickly would reasonably replicate winter temps. barrel wouldn't as cold, and as long as it was shot very quickly the primer and powder wouldn't get heated up much. Certainly not the powder anyway. Hmmm, something to try.

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#5312651 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: prm]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
My experience is that just cooling (or heating) the ammo doesn't produce the same results as when EVERYTHING is at "hunting temperature," whatever that is.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312763 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
Kimber7man Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 10029
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Thanks for the additional info!

When I've run my own cold-tempeature tests, I've tested cartridge/bullet combos that are very well suited to the powders, such as TAC and Benchmark with 50-grain bullets in the .223, or H4350 and Hunter with 100-grain bullets in the .257 Roberts.


John,

There hasn't been much mention of Benchmark, and I'm using it in my 358 WSSM - how does it compare vs TAC with regard to temp insensitivity?

Thanks!
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Outta retirement...

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#5312770 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Kimber7man]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36582
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Like all of the Extreme line of Hodgdon powders, Benchmark is very temp-resistant.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5312775 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
prm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 5330
Definitely would prefer to have everything just as it would be hunting. True cold bore shot. In the end, as long as it hits in the same place I'm happy.

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#5313185 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: Mule Deer]
bwinters Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 4790
Loc: Smoky Mountains, TN
MD - I see a similar powder book to accompany your bullet book.

You have access to real pressure equipment and a wide range of temperatures. "The Definitive Study of Powder Characteristics" should hit shelves in early 2013......... wink

Seriously, this book needs done and can be updated every few years as powders change. Heck Winchester powders would keep you in material forever at the rate they introduce/discontinue powders. I would work for free in any capacity necessary to put it together.
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Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.

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#5314370 - 06/08/11 Re: Question for Mule Deer Temp Sensitivity of Ramshot vs Hodgdon Extreme [Re: prm]
writing_frog Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 1407
Loc: France

As John said Tac and Big Game are very temp consistant because they are ball powders made first for military use in 7,62x51Nato and other rifle cartriges like 5,56x45Nato with heavy bullet (Tac). They are made in Belgium in Poudrerie de Clermont a plant who belong to the French SNPE and they use a modified Olin brevet. The plant was put at work during the cold war. They even make one very slow ball, slower than Magnum for use in 338Lap and .50Bmg.

The only differences between cilivian and military powders is a conservation product that allows 50years stocking in military wharehouses. May be today this thing is no more real because of the quantities of ammo burn in wars for ten years....
RL15 is from Swedish Bofors company (have good ties with SNPE and Vitahvuori and works together in powders and explosives business).Some batches are used for US military ammo in 5,56x45, not same name but same powders. It seem to be a bit less temp variation resistant, but nothing to brag about.
All the best
Dom
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