Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders 777 pellets vs. loose powder

I only started shooting a muzzleloader a couple years ago. At that time I bought a package of 100 50gr 777 pellets and shortly after that a pound fof 777 ffg. I opened but never tried the loose 777, just ran the pellets, using 2 for a 100gr charge.

Yesterday I was shooting up the last of those 777 pellets and decided to give the loose powder a try. I measure out 100 grs by volume and stuffed a 350 gr Hornady FPB bullet, the same bullet I was loading over the 777 pellets, down the muzzle until I felt it seat atop the powder charge. I primed up with a Remington kleenbore primer, lined up the crosshair and touched it off. HOLY SMOKES! There was some serious recoil and a much bigger roar than I got using the 777 pellets.

I began to recall a co-worker telling me about the recoil he experienced when shooting his muzzle loader. He uses pyrodex pellets and 295 gr powerbelts. He said he got recoil similar to a 12 guage firing 2 3/4" slugs which is about what I experienced with that load using loose 777.

I've always understood that 100grs by volume of loose 777 was the equivalent of 2, 50 gr 777 pellets, but the difference in performance makes me think that I got some pretty wimpy pellets. I'm going to drop back at least 20gr on my charge and try it again tomorrow. Maybe I'll fire a couple over the chronograph too.

So, whatta ya' think? Does it sound like some weak pellets? How much recoil should I expect? I'm shooting a Traditions Pursuit LT with a 3x9x40 Nikon scope. Using 777 powder and shooting Hornady 350gr FPB bullets.

I went through the same thing that you are experiencing with a Knight Disc rifle.

First, throw away the pellets or give them to someone that you don't like.

Use only loose powder and work up your load in 5g Increments, Start off at 75g and work up.

Buy new powder every year, 777 takes on moisture gets old or both. If you are the thrifty tpye, when you remove the seal, keep it. Re-seal the lid with white glue, don't break the seal till you are going to shoot next season.

If you can find any of Jim Shocky's Clean Shot, buy it. It is heads and tails above 777.

My Knight Disc rifle would not shoot the Power Belts very well at all, but with a 300g Hornady XTP, Black Sabot, and 90g of Clean shot, I could hold 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds, still in the running at 150 yards.

By the way, 777 is very hard to ignite, and pellets even harder.

If you can find some of Jim Shocky's Clean Shot, you will think that you have gone to Heaven...it is probably 5x cleaner burning than 777.

Loose powder is ALWAYS stronger than pellets by volume. 100gr of loose vs 100gr pellet charge is a no brainer! Loose will burner cleaner, faster and more energy behind the bullet! Get some Blackhorn 209 and standard cci primers maybe even cci 209m primers. Blackhorn 209 has changed the game of muzzloading like or as much as inlines did!

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

I'm still unsure about whether I'll continue shooting a muzzle loader. I'm finding it very frustrating to get consistent enough groups to even zero my scope. It seems that I'll need to develop a procedure of loading, firing, wiping or patching the bore and then loading and firing again to create consistent bore conditions.

I've considered trying a different powder like Blackhorn209 or maybe something else clean burning, but I don't get to a sporting goods store that carries anything other than Pyrodex or 777 very often.

Thanks again guys.

Take the boys advice and stay with the loose powder. Back your load off to 75-80 gr., and shoot your groups, go up from there, until the groups open up, then back them down. My CVA wolf does a great job with 80 gr. T7 3f, and 295 gr. power belts. I've taken 3 deer, the last 2 yrs, with that combo. All 1 shot kills. My son used the same setup to take his 1st ML kill this yr.

As far as procedure, shoot, run 1 spit patch/ then dry patch, reload and shoot again. If you are having trouble grouping, it could be bullet, or more likely powder charge. Also, check all your scres on the gun. If you are using a scope, the base/rings might be loose. Don't know where you live, but if you are trying to do the accuracy thingy, in cold weather, it might be you. Good luck!


maddog

bruin,

Get the BH209 - pay the hazmat fee if you must. (mail order)
Forget the swabbing, wiping etc. Going any other route is self-masochism.

Toss a powder measurer and a couple of bullet options on the order too.

With blackhorn there is no need to swab inbetween shots. Yes it can be frustrating to get the load bullet and primer right but when you do its perfection! I've shot 25 times with out swabbing at 100yards and had a 3" group. I can shoot 3 shots and keep it at 1" @ 100 yards.

bruinruin,

Most all of the discussion so far has been about powders and that's all good and fine but you might be running into accuracy problems with the FPB bullets you're using. That's a big part of the accuracy equation.

Just to see if your MZ is a shooter I'd suggest trying a saboted bullet. Something like the Hornady SST 250 or 300 gr. The good thing is they're inexpensive for target practice. I don't know if you're trying for a Colorado legal hunting load or not but least getiing it to shoot well and going from there is a start.

My loading routine with 777 is to swab once down and back with a patch wetted with just water and one dry patch down and back. flip the patch over and once more down and back. I use a .45 cal bronze brush as a patch holder. It works great. Lots more surface area than just using a jag.

Since you have 777 you might as well burn it up to get familar with your MZ. It's not like it's a horrible choice in powders. It can produce very good groups with the right charge, a bullet/sabot that your rifle likes and a good consistent loading procedure. Sure, using 777 is more labor intensive than Blackhorn but it's not totally inferior when it comes to accuracy.

As far as recoil goes, my Omega with a stout charge kicks like a friggin' mule. On par with a .300 win mag or 12 gauge 3" load.

Thanks again to all! I should have posted about this 2 years ago.

I have tried 3-4 different bullets/projectiles (?) in this gun. They are, 250gr TC shockwaves which shot pretty well. When I ran out of those I tried Hornady .451/240gr. XTPs in the Hornady 50 cal. sabot. They were dismal performers in my gun. Last year I tried the 295gr powerbelts and started using a procedure of wiping between shots like maddog and fishhead do. Accuracy was decent enough to be guilt free about taking to the woods with it last year, without success I might add.

The Hornady FPB bullets are something I tried for the first time this week. The local MC sports store had well over 100 packs of them on sale for less than $14 a pack so I picked up a pack and so far with the limited shooting I've done with them, they seem like they might be a keeper.

Thanks again guys, I think I'm gonna' head out and do a little more shooting with the ML today.

You may want to try both powders over the chrono. I'm shooting a little different set up....Ultimate muzzleloader, 200gr 777 pellets behind a 300gr SST.

I can't recall the exact numbers, but my chrono showed 200gr loose by volume was significantly slower than 4-50gr pellets. Perhaps this is an anomaly caused by an excessively long powder column with the heavy charge. I suspect the holes in the pellets contribute to better ignition with the 200gr charge.

405wcf

I'll add this. I believe the sabot used has as much to do with accuracy as the bullet itself. In my Omega using the same bullet and only changing sabots the accuracy goes from good to horrible.

What helped me immensley when I first started was searching the internet to find what was a consistenly accurate charge/sabot/bullet in a Omega. It wasn't hard to find the answers and it cut through a lot of the guesswork.

I love the fire but modernmuzzleloader.com was a great source of info.

I went out and did some more shooting with the ML.

I stayed with 75 grains of 777 ffg and the 350 gr Hornady FPB. Between shots I wiped with a patch wetted with spit. From the muzzle end I scrubbed the fouling ring in the area near where the powder charge sits, pulled the rod, patch and jag out slowly letting it rotate to follow the rifling. Then I flipped the patch over and repeated the process. This was followed by a dry patch that made one spiraling pass down and then back out of the muzzle where this patch was then flipped over and the process repeated with that side of the patch. This lightly soiled patch was set aside to be used as the wet patch for the next between shots cleaning.

I fired 2 shots at 35 yds to be sure I was on paper then switched over to my 100 yd target. At 100 yds I fired 1 shot, made a scope adjustment and proceeded to fire for accuracy. I fired 5 shots which formed a group of about 6", 2" high of center. The first 3 shots grouped about 3" with 2 of those sharing the same hole. I had to look closely at the target backer to confirm this. Because I only had 15 of the Hornady bullets to start with I didn't try any other powder charge than the 75 grains I started with.

At this point, with 4 bullets left and the gun shooting well enough to give me confidence to connect on a deer to at least 75 yards, I'm done testing for now. I plan to try tweaking the powder charge this winter to see if I can tighten up the group.

Thanks guys.

bruinruin, ya done good. Now go forth and slay a deer...


maddog

Yes, go bag that deer. After that continue the research & keep moving up to B209, a strong primer(CCIM) & a quality sabot. I didn't see you gun make but it sounds like it is good with B209.

Back to the pellets vrs looses debate, when you start a fire in your woodstove do you 1st light the kindling or a hickory log? Loose ignites better. If you can't get supplies locally mail order the B209, buy 2 & yes pay the haz-mat.

Not gonna happen this year I'm afraid. I got out yesterday morning and the only thing moving was a bald eagle that flew low overhead. Today was my big hope, but the storm has the wind roaring, the snow flying and me plowing. Next weekend is shot due to a Christmas shindig downstate.

Oh well, maybe next year.

I sure do appreciate the help and advice from all. Thanks