CLICK HERE for GREAT DEALS on KUIU ULTRALIGHT HUNTING GEAR!

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#4700089 - 12/13/10 11:03 PM .338 Lapua for dangerous game???
Polska Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 363
Loc: Nowy Jork (New York) upstate
This may seem crazy... i know it's a sniper round..but i was browsing through my midway catalog last night and saw some of the number for the .338 lapua...i knew it was a souped up version of the .338 win mag and .338 RUM, but i didn't think it was this impressive... some of the numbers I found:

300 grain bullet @ 2,900fps!!!

I forgot who made the ammo.. but i'm not lying I think it was federal or norma or one of those other non big name brands.

This is INSANE... thats more than a .375 H&H and a smaller bullet, this thing must penetrate like heck..

Think it could suffice for the big 5... i'm not talking about what the laws are... the law says you must use a .375 diameter bullet, but laws aside... I think it would even be better then the bigger rounds, except maybe for stopping


Edited by Polska (12/13/10 11:05 PM)
_________________________
Jeszcze Polska nie zginela kiedy my zyjemy,co nam obca przemoc wziela szabla odbierzemy.

Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna

Top
CI16728
CLICK HERE for GREAT DEALS on KUIU ULTRALIGHT HUNTING GEAR!
#4700098 - 12/13/10 11:09 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
Polska Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 363
Loc: Nowy Jork (New York) upstate
Corbon .338 Lapua. 300 grain hollow point boat tail2800fps, 5,225 ft pds

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=578724

Black hills, 300 grain@ 2800fps
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=773237

I think nosler was the one that had the 300 grainer at 2900
_________________________
Jeszcze Polska nie zginela kiedy my zyjemy,co nam obca przemoc wziela szabla odbierzemy.

Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna

Top
#4701049 - 12/14/10 09:12 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
jackfish Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 2181
Loc: Western Wisconsin
Whatever.
_________________________
You learn something new everyday whether you want to or not.

Top
#4701304 - 12/14/10 10:19 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jackfish]
458Win Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 2494
Loc: AK peninsula
It is the same league as the 340Wby and the .338 Ultra Mag so should work just fine on the same crtitters as those do. It is no super round, but simply one designed for long range military applications.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

Top
#4701321 - 12/14/10 10:24 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458Win]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
The 338 RUM is a better round if built in the same rifle
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4701348 - 12/14/10 10:33 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4989
Originally Posted By: Polska
This may seem crazy... i know it's a sniper round..but i was browsing through my midway catalog last night and saw some of the number for the .338 lapua...i knew it was a souped up version of the .338 win mag and .338 RUM, but i didn't think it was this impressive... some of the numbers I found:

300 grain bullet @ 2,900fps!!!

I forgot who made the ammo.. but i'm not lying I think it was federal or norma or one of those other non big name brands.

This is INSANE... thats more than a .375 H&H and a smaller bullet, this thing must penetrate like heck..

Think it could suffice for the big 5... i'm not talking about what the laws are... the law says you must use a .375 diameter bullet, but laws aside... I think it would even be better then the bigger rounds, except maybe for stopping

Weatherby 338/378 will go 2850fps- no problem with the 300 SMK. The 338Lapua IM will go over 3000fps. same bullet. My 378 spits out 300 grain bullets at over 3000 fps-what's the big deal. The best deal though is not in the speed it's what you do with the brass after, the 338 lapua IM can be simply renecked and shot over and over up to 10-15 times before full lenght resize which is what you have to do right away with all the other rounds that every one speaks of. This is why my Lapua will outshoot the bees and rums.
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#4701352 - 12/14/10 10:34 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polska
Corbon .338 Lapua. 300 grain hollow point boat tail2800fps, 5,225 ft pds

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=578724

Black hills, 300 grain@ 2800fps
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=773237

I think nosler was the one that had the 300 grainer at 2900



The usel;ess FPE numbers rears it's ugly head again


Since when has a 338 bore been elevated to the big bore classification
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4701357 - 12/14/10 10:35 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bea175
The 338 RUM is a better round if built in the same rifle



How is it better??
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4701398 - 12/14/10 10:50 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Rman Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2922
Loc: Calgary, AB
I'm thinking boltface, as that would be my concern. Can't speak for bea175.

R.
_________________________
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
Apparently, now turdlike?
WTB Sako L61R Barrel in .338WM.

Top
#4701568 - 12/14/10 11:27 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Rman]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


That is an over blown concern


388 Lapua on a M-700 action with Seekins detachable box magazine that allows for a COAL of 3.9"set up for long range hunting


_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4701591 - 12/14/10 11:30 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
458 Lott Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 13758
Loc: Conundrum, Alaska
I'd much rather have a 416 pushing a 350 gr @ 2700 fps. It's more gun up close, and a 300 yd gun with no holdover, which is further than one should be taking pokes at dangerous game.
_________________________
I'm not a gunwriter, that's 458 win. I'm just a gun-nut in Alaska.

Top
#4701647 - 12/14/10 11:42 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458 Lott]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


Agreed, +1.....
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4701923 - 12/14/10 12:57 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Rman Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2922
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: jwp475


That is an over blown concern


388 Lapua on a M-700 action with Seekins detachable box magazine that allows for a COAL of 3.9"set up for long range hunting








You know, I don't doubt that it is, or they wouldn't be doing it. When I look at the difference between the 700 boltface, and the one on my Sako, it still concerns me, there just isn't much material there on the 700 face. Not saying I would never shoot one, or own one, or anything like that. It is something I would inspect often, that's all. Nice rifle, and even nicer OAL. That would get 'em moving.

R.


_________________________
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
Apparently, now turdlike?
WTB Sako L61R Barrel in .338WM.

Top
#4702001 - 12/14/10 01:27 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Rman]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA

What about the bolt fac on a 98 Mauser or the CRF M-70? Harry Shelby's 416 Rigby was mad on a 98 Mauser action. The 416 Rigby is the parent case for the 338 Lapua


Edited by jwp475 (12/14/10 01:28 PM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4702030 - 12/14/10 01:34 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Mike378 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Sydney Australia
Originally Posted By: jwp475

What about the bolt fac on a 98 Mauser or the CRF M-70? Harry Shelby's 416 Rigby was mad on a 98 Mauser action. The 416 Rigby is the parent case for the 338 Lapua


I think the main difference is they don't protrude as far and thus will be more rigid. For that bolt face diameter I would prefer PF M70 or the HS Precision as the locking lugs extend to the end of the bolt.

But I think the main issue is you can have the same case capacity with the RUM or otherwise go to the 338/378.

Top
#4702114 - 12/14/10 02:00 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Mike378]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


The problem with the RUM is the it's small amount of popularity IMHO. The advantage of the Lapua is the quality and strngth of the 338 Lapua brand brass, and that is why I went with the Lapua and glad that I did
The M-700 Lapua above shoots 300 SMKs in the .2s and is plenty accurate for LRH IMHO
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4703672 - 12/14/10 08:21 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458 Lott]
Polska Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 363
Loc: Nowy Jork (New York) upstate
Originally Posted By: 458 Lott
I'd much rather have a 416 pushing a 350 gr @ 2700 fps. It's more gun up close, and a 300 yd gun with no holdover, which is further than one should be taking pokes at dangerous game.


I agree, but my qeustion is whether you could go on a safari withit and successfully take an elephant and rhino with it. Obviously for worst case scenario i'd rather have a 458 of some type or bigger
_________________________
Jeszcze Polska nie zginela kiedy my zyjemy,co nam obca przemoc wziela szabla odbierzemy.

Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna

Top
#4703763 - 12/14/10 08:50 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
pinotguy Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1381
Originally Posted By: Polska
Originally Posted By: 458 Lott
I'd much rather have a 416 pushing a 350 gr @ 2700 fps. It's more gun up close, and a 300 yd gun with no holdover, which is further than one should be taking pokes at dangerous game.


I agree, but my qeustion is whether you could go on a safari withit and successfully take an elephant and rhino with it. Obviously for worst case scenario i'd rather have a 458 of some type or bigger


In short - NO. African countries tend to have caliber and energy minimums for DG hunting. Usually these have been standardized at .375 and (roughly) 4,000 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. The one exception is Leopard but there are some countries that still require a .375 for Mr. Spots.
_________________________
I'm becoming more tolerant of intolerant people.

Top
#4703823 - 12/14/10 09:08 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polska
Originally Posted By: 458 Lott
I'd much rather have a 416 pushing a 350 gr @ 2700 fps. It's more gun up close, and a 300 yd gun with no holdover, which is further than one should be taking pokes at dangerous game.


I agree, but my qeustion is whether you could go on a safari withit and successfully take an elephant and rhino with it. Obviously for worst case scenario i'd rather have a 458 of some type or bigger



Elephant and Rhino have been taken with much smaller Bell used a 6.5 to kill a lot of Elephants

The FPE is not a good indicator of a cartridges lethality
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4703842 - 12/14/10 09:17 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
action availably and brass easier to come by and cheaper. The Lapua may hold around 7 or 8 more gr of powder, not enough to make a difference in my opinion.
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4703864 - 12/14/10 09:25 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
Well I gotta say that I sure like the way the .416 Rem mag or Rigby smack big game in the field. Most places I ever took those big bores of mine, I never had to shoot more than 250 yards to begin with in order to harvest my animal. The 350 grain Swift A Frame usually is recovered picture perfect in mushrooming, if it doesn't pass clean on through.
_________________________
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All

UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN


Top
#4703884 - 12/14/10 09:39 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bea175
action availably and brass easier to come by and cheaper. The Lapua may hold around 7 or 8 more gr of powder, not enough to make a difference in my opinion.



Acctually the RUM and the Lapua hold about the same amount of powder. The Laupa is more popular and the brass is better and that is why I chose the Lapua. Ballistcaly they are equal
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4704028 - 12/14/10 11:42 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Kentucky_Windage Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 5696
Loc: San Antonio
My only experience thus far with the Lapua was with this charming model unveiled by Savage a year ago.

I wouldn't say I was inordinately enamored of it, but they DID have to pry me away from it.

Still thinking about an acquisition...

_________________________
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.

Top
#4704062 - 12/15/10 12:44 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Kentucky_Windage]
458Win Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 2494
Loc: AK peninsula
The 338 Lapua is great for certain applications, and with proper bullets should work fine on most game but I don't think it'll replace my short, light 375's or 458 for most work.

_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

Top
#4704974 - 12/15/10 08:13 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458Win]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


Looking at FPE and thinking that a 338 is the same as a 416, 458,etc on large dangerous game is very flawed thinking

The 338 is one of my favorite bore sizes, but just as Phil stated above it ain't a replacement for the TRUE BIG BORES by no stretch of the imagination
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4705472 - 12/15/10 10:23 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458Win]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4989
Originally Posted By: 458Win
The 338 Lapua is great for certain applications, and with proper bullets should work fine on most game but I don't think it'll replace my short, light 375's or 458 for most work.


Nice TRG and nice shooting range you have there.
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#4705500 - 12/15/10 10:31 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 378Canuck]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
Case capacity in gr of water from Loads from a Disk

338 Lapua 114.88 GR

338 RUM 106.91 GR

7.97 GR Different not much
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4705522 - 12/15/10 10:35 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4989
338 Lapua IM is 121 grains FWIW
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#4705530 - 12/15/10 10:37 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA

Sierra manuel Edition V page 660

Max load listed for the 338 RUM and the 300 SKK

H-1000-93.9 grain

Rl-22-83 grains


Page 664 for the 338 Lapua with the 300 SMK

H-1000-92.2 grains

Rl-22-80.9 grains

_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4705535 - 12/15/10 10:38 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 378Canuck]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
I'm just going by the Ballistic Program and have never actually weight them out.
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4705560 - 12/15/10 10:44 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4989
Brass is the main reason and they are more accurate-no doubt in my mind. Dont hear many stories about snipers making 2.5 KM shots with RUM or Weatherbies do you? Then agin the post was about shooting dangerous game. There is no more dangerous game than humans that shoot back is there in my opinion?
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#4705652 - 12/15/10 11:13 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 378Canuck]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
Only because the sniper only use what they are given, chamber the rifle in the Wby or the 338 RUM and you would get the same kill results.
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4705738 - 12/15/10 11:30 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4989
Doubt that. I have a 338/378 Bee and the 338 Lapua will outshoot it easily. My buddy has a RUM and he can't even hit a drum at 1000 yds with it. The bee will hit the drum but the holes are all over the place. The Lapua will group in 7 inch.
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#4705837 - 12/15/10 11:57 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 378Canuck]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25425
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
I believe accuracy comes from who builds the rifle and the ability of the shooter than and actual round it is chambered for when the rounds are as close as the Lapua and RUM. But this is just my personal opinion
_________________________
What does a Muslim Husband tell his wife who has two black eyes? NOTHING! She has been told twice...


Top
#4706072 - 12/15/10 01:07 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: bea175]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bea175
Only because the sniper only use what they are given, chamber the rifle in the Wby or the 338 RUM and you would get the same kill results.



The 338 Lapua was designed from the ground up as a military cartridge and was based on the 416 Rigby case. The 416 Rigby case was used instead of the 378 cased to get away from the belt. The 378 is based off of the 416 Rigby with a belt added


History Of The 338 Lapua As Told By Lapua
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4706351 - 12/15/10 02:23 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Mike378 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Sydney Australia
Which of the 338s is best at long range s probably academic as the 300 magnums seem to rule. I think the 300 WSM just took the record at a 1000 yards and usually it is a variation of the 300 Winchester and 300 Wby/Ackely Improved.

Top
#4706402 - 12/15/10 02:36 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Mike378]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


The 300 WSM is shorter than the 300 Win with less body taper and a 35 degreee shoulder without the silly useless belt
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4708216 - 12/15/10 09:17 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
Some years ago when I was shooting a lot, I don't recall any of the .338 calibers doing squat at those 1000 yard shoots. However, the .300 Win mag certainly did make a name for it's self no question about that fact.
_________________________
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All

UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN


Top
#4708363 - 12/15/10 10:06 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Tonk]
Mike378 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Sydney Australia
Originally Posted By: Tonk
Some years ago when I was shooting a lot, I don't recall any of the .338 calibers doing squat at those 1000 yard shoots. However, the .300 Win mag certainly did make a name for it's self no question about that fact.


The bloke who does best in Australia uses a variation of the 300 Winchester. It has a name but I can't remember. I think change in should angle and maybe neck lenghth.

Anyway, he has said a few times that one of the major things is powder suitability of available powders for the case capacity.

Top
#4876705 - 01/29/11 01:59 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
atomiclab Offline
Member

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 130
Loc: central Texas
Originally Posted By: jwp475


That is an over blown concern


388 Lapua on a M-700 action with Seekins detachable box magazine that allows for a COAL of 3.9"set up for long range hunting








what is this rifle built on? what action is that? Might that be a standard long action or is it something custom or special (bigger than long action)???
_________________________
1. I now see the wisdom and merits of much older generations.
2. Technology makes things cheaper, easier, and less labor intensive, but not necessarily better.

Top
#4876908 - 01/29/11 02:53 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Polska]
Dancing Bear Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 2435
Loc: Portland, Ore
Not a superior dangerous game cartridge IMHO. Shooting at dangerous game at long range seems like a bad idea. At short range, bigger bullets are better.

It is a great design with all the benefits of military financed development. The brass is amazing and the tolerances are great.

The round is a little hard to fit in a conventional action unfortunately. I am hopeful we will see something similar on the 375 Ruger case soon maybe an H&H length.

It is no longer avaiable but the sporter version on the Sako TRG was/is a great sporting rifle. My favorite hunting partner
has one but carries a SAKO 75/338 for elk. I gather top loads in the light SAKO move you around a bit.

Top
#4877486 - 01/29/11 05:28 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
jorgeI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21737
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
338 for DG? screw that pipsqeak, here's a REAL DG round:


I'm sure that 338L will do just fine on anything that walks, just use a good premium. smile jorge


Edited by jorgeI (01/29/11 05:29 PM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#4877838 - 01/29/11 07:01 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: atomiclab]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: atomiclab
Originally Posted By: jwp475


That is an over blown concern


388 Lapua on a M-700 action with Seekins detachable box magazine that allows for a COAL of 3.9"set up for long range hunting








what is this rifle built on? what action is that? Might that be a standard long action or is it something custom or special (bigger than long action)???


Remington M-700 long action
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4877840 - 01/29/11 07:02 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: atomiclab]
Happy Birthday joecool544 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Bandon Oregon
Originally Posted By: atomiclab
Originally Posted By: jwp475


That is an over blown concern


388 Lapua on a M-700 action with Seekins detachable box magazine that allows for a COAL of 3.9"set up for long range hunting








what is this rifle built on? what action is that? Might that be a standard long action or is it something custom or special (bigger than long action)???


No really??

Top
#4881478 - 01/30/11 06:27 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: joecool544]
atomiclab Offline
Member

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 130
Loc: central Texas
JWP475,

did your Rem M700 action REQUIRE any other modifications other than bolt face and magazine to be able to shoot the 338 Lapua? If so what was required?
_________________________
1. I now see the wisdom and merits of much older generations.
2. Technology makes things cheaper, easier, and less labor intensive, but not necessarily better.

Top
#4882059 - 01/30/11 08:56 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: atomiclab]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: atomiclab
JWP475,

did your Rem M700 action REQUIRE any other modifications other than bolt face and magazine to be able to shoot the 338 Lapua? If so what was required?


If you load to 3.6" coal then that is all that is required. I had a Sako style extractor installed and the bolt stop position moved inorder to load to 3.9" coal
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4882272 - 01/31/11 12:48 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7712
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
If you use the right bullet and the rifle is built on a sporting configuration (personal preference) then yes you can use it on the Big bears.

Those pre loaded 300 gr SMKs will not do at all in my opinion for dangerous game of any sort.
I would use them on coyotes.
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#4882337 - 01/31/11 03:51 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jorgeI]
Homesteader Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 983
Loc: South Florida
Jorge1 - the voice of reason ...at last. Homesteader.

Top
#4892019 - 02/02/11 12:39 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Homesteader]
dgr416 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 66
I have been using my Weatherby Accumark 338-378 for about 10 years .It is awesome.The 250 Nosler Partition bullet at 3100 fps is the ticket for big bears out to 400 yards andmoose to 500 yards.Most of these 300 gr bullets are match bullets not designed for hunting.I had a friend shoot two caribou with one shot with my gun at 450 yards.It killed both of them like a mack truck had hit them.The 338-378 adds about 200 yards to what the 338 win mag would do.I hope the 338 lapua is chambered in some lighter guns such as the weatherby Accumark.I want a gun under 10 pounds scope and all.Your not going to lug these 20 pound guns very far.The 28 barrel with the break on my 338-378 is way long enough any longer and its a pain to carry on the tundra.I love the Weatherby Accumark it is the best hunting rifle I have ever owned.

Top
#4892478 - 02/02/11 02:35 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jorgeI]
George_De_Vries_3rd Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 10176
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
338 for DG? screw that pipsqeak, here's a REAL DG round:


I'm sure that 338L will do just fine on anything that walks, just use a good premium. smile jorge


JorgeI, your Sabatti?


Edited by goodnews (02/02/11 02:36 PM)

Top
#4892737 - 02/02/11 03:34 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
jorgeI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21737
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Yup, been doing some loading too! :



_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#4892789 - 02/02/11 03:47 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jorgeI]
George_De_Vries_3rd Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 10176

Yea, I've seen your targets--looks like you have a winner there. After having a Chapuis for awhile, the double gun bug has not left me alone.

Top
#4892800 - 02/02/11 03:49 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
jorgeI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21737
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
I ordered a Verney-Carron whilst at DSC. Haven't decided on the caliber yet but it'll probably be another 450NE
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#4892804 - 02/02/11 03:49 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jorgeI]
Kentucky_Windage Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 5696
Loc: San Antonio
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
338 for DG? screw that pipsqeak, here's a REAL DG round:


I'm sure that 338L will do just fine on anything that walks, just use a good premium. smile jorge


Bastid... Now I'm jealous.
_________________________
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.

Top
#4895619 - 02/03/11 11:20 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Kentucky_Windage]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
Jeorge I agee! I like my .470-Capstick or the .458-LOTT. The light rifle is a .375-Wby!!!

Now If I want to really hit something way out youndar way, I'll use my 7mm mag or .300 Win mag......they are very accurate with me behind the trigger. I do have the .338-Edge and a .300-RUM but accuracy is not near as good out to 700 to 100 yards. They also recoil a heck of a lot more at the bench! No muzzle brakes please.


Edited by Tonk (02/03/11 11:22 AM)
_________________________
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All

UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN


Top
#4898408 - 02/04/11 12:23 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Tonk]
Polska Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 363
Loc: Nowy Jork (New York) upstate
i know i know, i'm saving up my money for a ruger alaskan 416 which will be my first true big bore, other than hot loaded .45-70. I'm just saying, if you had to, could you? If you had no other rifle and a bear was staring you down at 50 yards, could it get the job done? I'm not willing to experiment, just curious
_________________________
Jeszcze Polska nie zginela kiedy my zyjemy,co nam obca przemoc wziela szabla odbierzemy.

Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna

Top
#4995326 - 03/01/11 05:58 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Dhagaboy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 58
Examine the case of the 460Wby! Outstanding ballistic performance...poor Elephant rifle! However downloaded to 2400fps = outstanding performance once again. Too much speed is somehow detrimental to thick skinned animal knockdown ability. (The 460Wby in factory load ammo veered off center line in Elephant skulls until it was downloaded)

Top
#4995357 - 03/01/11 06:08 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Dhagaboy]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 21783
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: Dhagaboy
Examine the case of the 460Wby! Outstanding ballistic performance...poor Elephant rifle! However downloaded to 2400fps = outstanding performance once again. Too much speed is somehow detrimental to thick skinned animal knockdown ability. (The 460Wby in factory load ammo veered off center line in Elephant skulls until it was downloaded)


Thats because the hornady solids are round nose, put a barnes or other solid w/ at least a 60% meplat and watch that mother plow.

Gunner
_________________________
"I Walk Alone"

Top
#4996315 - 03/01/11 11:26 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: gunner500]
AussieGunWriter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 4760
Originally Posted By: gunner500
Originally Posted By: Dhagaboy
Examine the case of the 460Wby! Outstanding ballistic performance...poor Elephant rifle! However downloaded to 2400fps = outstanding performance once again. Too much speed is somehow detrimental to thick skinned animal knockdown ability. (The 460Wby in factory load ammo veered off center line in Elephant skulls until it was downloaded)


Thats because the hornady solids are round nose, put a barnes or other solid w/ at least a 60% meplat and watch that mother plow.

Gunner


Agreed,
The formula for denigrating cartridges based on bullet performance is clearly obsolete. There is less than one car load of .460 experts in the world. If you handload this cartridge and use it, you will realize that 99.9% of negative comments made on the .460 are without first hand knowledge and worse still, limited exposure during a single review.


The .460 is the most powerful varmint cartridge youcan buy over the counter. It reularly shoots .5 MOA 3 shot groups and regularly shoot under .7MOA for 5 shot groups. It also penetrated in a dead straight line when using 2011 bullet technology and slams game to the ground isn the most impressive manner.

The beauty of this cartridge is twofold, firstly, it has the same trajectory as your .30/06 with 180 grain bullets, secondly, you can use lighter weight .458 bullets and still get 5 - 6 feet penetration and if you wish, load the 500 - 600 grainers to any velocity to suit your personal comfort level.

Everything else is less.

.460 Weatherby Magnum Page 1.

Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

300gn Hornady HP
100gn IMR 3031 2738 4995
106gn IMR 3031 2888 5557 Great on Pigs

350gn Speer FP
90gn AR 2206 2380 4403 Bullet better suited to .458 Win
100gn AR 2206 2629 5373
100gn AR 2208 2515 4917
105gn AR 2208 2685 5604
100gn IMR 4064 2525 4956
105gn IMR 4064 2685 5604
108.5gn IMR 4064 2730 5794
112gn IMR 4064 2860 6359 Still Mild

400gn Speer FP
40gn Blue Dot 1720 2628 Fed 215 Primer
57gn 2400 2080 3844 Fed 215 Primer
58gn 2400 2120 3993 Fed 215 Primer
100gn IMR 4064 2500 5553
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719

400gn Barnes X
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719 Easy shooting big game load
110gn VARGET 2750 6719 6 feet penetration on big game.
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472
116gn AR 2208 2860 7267

400gn Woodleigh
110gn VARGET 2737 6655 Bullet better suited to .458 Win.
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472

450gn Barnes TSX
110gn IMR 4350 2408 5795
115gn IMR 4350 2527 6382
117gn IMR 4350 2575 6627
119gn IMR 4350 2627 6897 Compressed load

500gn Barnes TSX
110gn IMR 4350 2433 6574
112gn IMR 4350 2483 6847 .456" Great load
115gn IMR 4350 2543 7182 Very heavily compressed

500gn Hornady RN
115gn IMR 4350 2500 6941 .5 MOA Max velocity for this bullet
120gn IMR 4350 2600 7507
122gn IMR 4350 2642 7752 Bullet not strong enough
104gn Rel 15 2398
108.5gn Rel 15 2512 7008
85gn IMR 4064 2028 4567
87gn IMR 4064 2100 4897
104gn AR 2208 2400 6397
94gn AR 2206 2300 5875
115gn WIN 760 2450 6666 Very accurate .5 MOA for 3 shots
115gn AR 2209 2500 6941 .5 MOA
115gn Rel 19 2500 6941
115gn IMR 4831 2500 6941
75gn AR 2207 2000 4442

500gn Swift A-Frame
122gn IMR 4350 2660 7858 Same POI as 500gn Hornady bullet
123gn IMR 4350 2678 7964

550gn Woodleigh
110gn IMR 4350 2356 6769
115gn IMR 4350 2382 6931
117gn IMR 4350 2471 7459 Warm Load
117gn WIN 760 2383 6939
120gn WIN 760 2393
122gn WIN 760 2460 Warm Load
117gn AR 2209 2439
119gn AR 2209 2457
119gn IMR 4831 2464
121gn IMR 4831 2509 7690 Buffalo Load - accurate
121gn AR 2213 2422
123gn AR 2213 2459
115gn WMR 2138
118gn WMR 2162
120gn WMR 2179
122gn WMR 2243 6146

600gn Barnes RN
120gn AR 2213 2346
122gn AR 2213 2389
118gn IMR 4831 2392
120gn IMR 4831 2453 8019 Warm Load
114gn IMR 4350 2418
116gn IMR 4350 2460 8064

NOTE: AR2209 is H 4350 and AR 2213 is H 4831.

John
_________________________
What I offer, is yours to keep, yours to use, yours to ignore. The freedom to choose, is what matters to me most.

The only way to improve a .30/06, is to clean it once in a while.


Top
#4996733 - 03/01/11 01:47 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: gunner500]
jorgeI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21737
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Originally Posted By: gunner500
Originally Posted By: Dhagaboy
Examine the case of the 460Wby! Outstanding ballistic performance...poor Elephant rifle! However downloaded to 2400fps = outstanding performance once again. Too much speed is somehow detrimental to thick skinned animal knockdown ability. (The 460Wby in factory load ammo veered off center line in Elephant skulls until it was downloaded)


Thats because the hornady solids are round nose, put a barnes or other solid w/ at least a 60% meplat and watch that mother plow.

Gunner


Have to agree with Gunner on this one. The 460 like all other Weatherby calibers, exceeded the bullet technology of the time. Today, with the advent of excellent solids especially those with flatter meplats, makes the 460 the "penetration king". Full disclosure; I've never taken an elephant. jorge
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#5003150 - 03/03/11 07:43 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jorgeI]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 21783
Loc: Oklahoma
10-4 Jorge, I to have never killed an ele,

While not my first choice a 577 NE rifle I have came w/ about 150 woodie softs and solids, of course they are round like the hornady's of old.
I have tested both extensively on cattle carcases that have died here on my farm. One was a herd bull, aprox 2200lbs.

The woodies and old hornady's would often veer off line and even flatten the base of the bullet, kinda like you squeezed it in a vise. [never could figger that one]

I will say all testing w/ the barnes banded solids has been unbelievable, straight line flight, and try as I might, I couldnt keep one in a bull.

These tests were performed in the following calibers.
375 AI
416 Rigby
458 WM
500 NE
505 Gibbs
577 NE
Soon as I get all the woodies shot up in the 577, it will be re-regulated w/ barnes tsx/solid loads for all game.

Gunner
_________________________
"I Walk Alone"

Top
#5004331 - 03/03/11 02:54 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
1234567 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4320
I believe what the OP is asking is, if the .338 Lapua can produce 5225 Foot Pounds of energy, which is more than the .375 H&H and the .458 Win. Mag, and is as much as many of the .450-.470 calibers that are considered DG cartridges, why wouldn't the .338 Lapua fill the same need?

My opinion is that the answer would boil down as to which would be best at stopping a large game animal, a lessor diam. bullet going fast, or a larger diameter, slower and heaveyier bullet which produces the same FPE.

I am not in a position to answer the question, as I have never hunted DG, but there is no doubt in my mind that a .338 Solid into an elephant's brain would stop him just as quick as a .577.

Body shots, in the heart lung area, which would do the most damage to the vital oregans, the large dia. bullet or the fast .338 bullet with the same FPE. That, I can't answer, but I think the question could be answered by experienced DG hunters, who have actually hunted Cape Bufflo and Elephant.

There are two ways to get FPE. 1) a lighter bullet moving fast, and 2) a heavy bullet that is not quite as fast, but has a larger dia. The answer would lie in which one of the two was the better killer.

A heavy bullet is not nessessaryly larger in dia., but for this post, I am comparing a .338 bullet with a .45 caliber bullet, both producing the same FPE. My opinion, I would go with the larger bullet hole.

Top
#5010356 - 03/05/11 08:51 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 1234567]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
I suppose you can juggle figures until the cows come back to the barn! Whatever etc.

I own and hunt with a couple of .338 caliber rifles, a .338 Win mag and a .338-Edge. Now at a distance of under 300 yards they don't kill game any better than my .338-06 really......Dead is simply Dead!!! The .338-Edge will shoot flatter for a longer distance but I never saw an animal that was killed by just energy numbers.
_________________________
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All

UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN


Top
#5010434 - 03/05/11 09:13 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 1234567]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


The larger frontal area and the most momentum will always trump light and fast.

Yes a perfectly placed shot inot the brain will be equally effective, even from a 6.5X55. It is the less than perfect, yet close to perfect that benifit from the larger diameter and weight of the projectile
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#5010850 - 03/05/11 11:25 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
1234567 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4320
"The larger frontal area and the most momentum will always trump light and fast."

Yes, that is what my question was about. I have always wondered how more frontal area would compare to small frontal area at the same FPE.

My opinion is that the larger bullet hole and larger frontal area would come out ahead, but I have no proof of that.

John Taylor with his formula for knock out put a lot of emphasis on frontal area. Although he was talking solid bullets and head shots on elephant, I think the same principal would apply if the bullet was aimed at vital organs, too.

Those old .50 caliber buffolo rifles did not have a lot of FPE, when compared to modern cartridges, but, from what I have read, they were adequate for the purpose.

Top
#5013749 - 03/06/11 08:05 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 1234567]
458Win Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 2494
Loc: AK peninsula
The 338 Lapua is a purpose designed and built round for long range sniping. In the hunting field is is not much different than the 340 Weatherby and I am sure that in certain situations the "Roy Weatherby effect" of super high velocity could be applied on DG like lions and to an extent bears, but the problem with high velocity is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That is not what you want on an animal intent on killing you. Heavy, large bore bullets have proven to be more reliable killers under those conditions.

_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

Top
#5014582 - 03/06/11 12:13 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: 458Win]
marmotone Offline
New Member

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 6
And who wants to lug around the typical 14 pound "sniper" rifle when a 98 in 458 or a 71 in 450 Alaskan weighs a lot less ?

Top
#5014619 - 03/06/11 12:22 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: marmotone]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18335
Loc: USA


a 338 Lapua doesn't have to be built like a "Sniper" rifle as you call it.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#5019357 - 03/07/11 05:50 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: jwp475]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
I have a friend that has the .338-Lupua and that rifle weighs in a 9-lbs loaded up with ammo in the magazine. He has a muzzle brake on the end that looks like a small tin can, with large holes around it, guess it works for him.
_________________________
Thank Our Veterans!
GOD Bless Them All

UNIONS BUILDING AMERICA, SALUTE ALL THE UNION TRADESMAN


Top
#5172018 - 04/22/11 11:32 AM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
Tomas Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 2
So , anyone with a Sako 75 action that takes 338 Lapua?

Top
#5173534 - 04/22/11 08:35 PM Re: .338 Lapua for dangerous game??? [Re: Tomas]
CRS Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 2122
Loc: Black Hills of Dakota
Barnes makes a 285gr TSX for the Lapua. I am pretty sure that would do the job.

They also make a 250gr Banded solid, I am thinking that would penetrate into the brain of an elephant.

But bigger diameters kills better. I think that is important when dealing dangerous game.
_________________________
Arcus Venator

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >


Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
Support Our Sponsors 1
Who's Online
295 registered (01Foreman400, 10generation, 16penny, 257heaven, 257_X_50, 45 invisible), 1084 Guests and 345 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Support Our Sponsors 2
Forum Stats
50846 Members
72 Forums
642665 Topics
9230091 Posts

Max Online: 4366 @ 10/05/10 09:36 AM
Support Our Sponsors 3







CLICK HERE for GREAT DEALS on KUIU ULTRALIGHT HUNTING GEAR!


Copyright 08 2000-2015 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.