Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting So what are you guys afraid of?

As I said I am voicing my opinion, no more no less we are all entitled to that. To debate the silly notion that your dragging up is not worth wile to me. You're right the over all power was dissapointing to me. And as I said the precocked point and shoot from a hide is an advantage that eliminates one of the greatest struggles with conventional archery gear. Heck just this weekend I was shooting carp in a lake from my boat. I will estimate (conservatively) that 1/3 the carp bolted from sight when I drew my bow to shoot them. This is just with a stupid carp! Had I only needed to point and shoot with a precocked weapon none of them would have had that chance.

AS I said I have owned and used both and see a huge difference between them. As far as I'm concerned your selling the idea to the wrong group of people. Nobody here(to my knowledge) can change the laws in each state. You guys that feel so strongly need to persue this with your states F&G departments. Several states already offer a crossbow season and some of canada does as well.

If it's a legal season so much the better then you can have your wish. I have no class envy on this whole crossbow debate. I do not consider a crossbow as difficult or as sporting as a conventional bow. I also don't consider My Mathews Legacy with a trigger release as sporting as a Recurve or a recurve as sporting as a 100% self constructed long bow with flint tips. There are all different levels of "sporting" and many are in the eyes of the beholder!

So I say again "in my opinion" the Crossbow is not apples and apples when compared to a conventional bow of any style. If it actually were considered the same by the majority of Game departments across the country then why is not considered legal in all those states?

I have no vested interest in the debate. I own both a Browning Crossbow right now, and three compound bows. If the cross bow were made legal and hunting bears over bait was made legal again that crossbow would likely be my first choice for a weapon to use. Silent and deadly to the distance I need not spooking the bait with a gun shot. With a red dot scope perfectly functional to well after the canopy of the forest blocks the light from the setting sun.

No movement a solid rest from my seated treestand chair rail. It's as good as it gets. I would not ever try to claim its as hard or as sporting as having to stand and draw a 70 pound bow and hold it steady with that physical effort for the bear to turn just right, or step out from behind a tree or branch before the arrow can be released.

Some guys have a bug up their A$$ but have never used one. I have used them both and own them both. Because of that I clearly see the superior accuracy and lack of physical effort when hunting from a hide, or elevated platform. They still spook me to no end with the flimsy (my opinion) safety and the multitude of ways that thing can accidental discharge when walking with it loaded. It is definately harder to hunt with where long stalks are the hunting style. I would no sooner carry that heavy awkward bugger then a load of bricks!

JJ

My post wasn't meant strictly for you, but I did want an answer to the question I asked because you seemed to contradict yourself.......

I've never seen a Browning crossbow, so I can't comment on the safety issue of your bow.......I have shot a few different brands of crossbows and have yet to see one with a flimsy safety???......I don't see how a loaded crossbow is any different than a loaded gun as far as safety goes.......I don't point either one at anything I don't want to shoot.......

As to the effort required to hold a 70 pound compound at full draw.......well, at 85% letoff, you would be holding a whopping 10.5 pounds.......not really a big deal! If someone helps me get the bow drawn, I can hold 10.5 pounds at full draw for a long time.....even with a junk shoulder! As far as getting busted while drawing.......if you set up correctly, that isn't the problem a lot of folks make it out to be.......I know, I've been there and done that........

In the 80s, I served as Rangemaster and later President of one of the largest bowhunting clubs in Oklahoma.......a lot of us had the same mistaken ideas about crossbows back then......even though very few of us had ever shot one, we bought the "crossbows are rifles" propaganda put out by the likes of Bowhunter Magazine and other "bowhunting" organizations..... funny thing, when my busted up my shoulder finally put an end to me shooting a conventional bow, I found out real fast how wrong we all were! I found out that crossbows aren't magic, that they are loud and cumbersome, that they aren't superior in performance to compound bows...that they don't make killing a deer a sure thing.....

I have a lifetime permit to hunt with a crossbow......I could just do my thing and keep quiet.......but I believe that people have been lied to about crossbows for too long.......and I have a difficult time standing by and listening to the blatant lies that many ignorant people regurgitate when the topic of crossbows is brought up.......

I certainly don't mind an opinion that differs from mine as long as the person giving it actually has some experience from which to base that opinion.....and isn't just parroting back the propaganda that he has heard........I'm sure you can understand that......

Your going in circles with regulations that are not consistant nation wide. Simply put most states do not allow 85% letoff but only 65% and I'll bet you anything you like that you will not hold that amount for 60 seconds and make an accurate shot 100% of the time. Especailly when you have been sitting all bundled up in a tree for 3 hours with no stretching or moving at 15 degrees F in the wind. Try standing and shooting only a 50lb bow with a huge coat on VS raising a crossbow and pulling a trigger!

As I said if your trying to sell this idea you still need some work before I'm buying! I have well in excess of 20 years experience of conventional Archery with recurves, compounds, and yes even the Crossbow! I have also had dozens of hunters through my Hunting consession in Africa with all sorts of Archery from Long bows to Crossbows. I do know the clear difference in the use of each. It's not an easy sell to those of us have used them both with frequency! They are absolutely not the same. To turn the table on this if you continue to claim there is not any difference in the function or practical use why not just get a compound bow and be done with it? If holding an 85% compound is just so easy why not get one? I would be interested to see how you handle target panic when you lose the crossbow trigger, and replace it with the compound trigger release while under pressure of draw weight, trying to aim, not being detected while drawing, and actually hitting the target!

I get to voice an opinion just like you and everyone else. Mine has been voiced and you have responded I respect your opinion. I hope you respect mine. Neither of us is going to re-write the law. I suggest you put your energy to a more productive use and get a petition started in your home state or where ever you choose to hunt and try to change the law. It's my guess you will have your work cut out for you. This was clearly good practice to see how the general public will respond to your request to change your states law.

If this thread is any indication you will need some work to win the battle. I suggest removing all emotion form the argument, remove all personal feelings and get the facts. Research states and provinces that now allow Crossbows. Get statistics from as many credible sources as you can find. Don't embelish a single item, if you do and it's been proven otherwise the credibility of all your reseach and statistics will be questioned. Go to Archerytalk.com and post this thread. They will eat you alive with absolutely no effort. But it will get you a taste of what you would see when trying to get a law changed. If you can survive that site with a post like this, or even just keep your head above water you will be well on your way to seeing the big picture of getting people to think like you do about crossbows.

It's a long hard battle to win something like this with the state government or even F&G. I wish you well with the endeavor! Oh and if you do post this at Archerytalk.com in the bowhunting forum please let me(us) know, I am looking forward to the entertainment of that thread!

JJ

I guess you didn't read all my post......I bow hunted for 20 years with both recurve and compound bows.....I'm NOT new to the game! I know exactly how much difficulty is involved with drawing holding and shooting a conventional bow. When I said I can hold an 85% let off compound for a long time at full draw.......it wasn't speculation.....I have done it! As far as holding it for 60 seconds and making an accurate shot 100% of the time, no, I can't do it, neither can YOU and neither can 99% of bowhunters....so what does that prove??? Believe me, if I could still shoot a compound bow.......I WOULD!

By the way, which states prohibit 85% let off compounds??? Do you know that Pope & Young recently changed their rules to allow the submission of "trophies" taken with 85% let-off bows???

As far as archery talk goes......I have visited the site......I have seen how they treat crossbow users.......you talk about a cesspool of ignorance!!!! Talk about people that argue strictly from emotion!! I'd venture to say that 90% of those folks have zero experience with crossbows.......yet they rant, rail and regurgitate against them like the actually KNOW what they are talking about! You know what, those folks aren't the people that need convincing, they don't make the laws any more than you or I do.......

I think it's ironic that none of the anti crossbow folks on this thread, including you, have brought forth any FACTS to contradict what I and many other have said..........nobody has said that crossbows don't have an advantage.......but the advantage isn't nearly as great as many folks want to believe! Certainly not enough to ban them from regular archery seasons!

JJ, you make one of the more reasoned arguments against crossbows of anyone I have heard and give examples where they would have an advantage. To tell the truth I had not thought about the advantage in very cold weather as we really do not get that much down here.

You did mention in an earlier post that most of the hunters who bring one to Africa give it up in just a few days and go with a rifle? I am curious if the same is true with those who show up with a recurve or compound bow? I suspect not but you have actual experience and I would very much like to know.

I suspect the answer is no because in my experience, the disadvantages of the crossbow, far outweigh the advantages. I have yet to hear from anyone on this board or elsewhere, who is forced by physical condition to use a crossbow, that would not immediately go back to a recurve or compound if they could. If we have such a tremendous advantage, why???
No one has ever answered that question for me. TM

Gonhunting your going to need a less emotional spokesmen for your cause. Your far too wound up to think clearly on this. As an example you wrote this bit of text, which is exactly my point and burries your theory of there being no "sporting" difference:

Your Quote:
"When I said I can hold an 85% let off compound for a long time at full draw.......it wasn't speculation.....I have done it! As far as holding it for 60 seconds and making an accurate shot 100% of the time, no, I can't do it, neither can YOU and neither can 99% of bowhunters....so what does that prove???"
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What does it Prove? It shows absolutely clear that a conventional bow cannot be held and shot accurately for any length of time. ***VERY*** different then a crossbow which can be held ready to shoot with Zero effort infinately and aimed rock steady just like a rifle before a trigger realeses the arrow with no chance of target panic.

As I said if you want to tune your debating skills on this topic go hang out on the Archry talk forum. You can learn a thing or two about the views you are up against. So maybe there is emotion in the debate over there, learn from it and you will see what not to do when trying to sell your idea.

Travelingman, The reason for giving it up is not the shooting from a hide but rather trying to drag that huge awkward contraption through the bush quietly. Plenty of times we have been crawling along a game trail. The crossbow is a hidious tool to sneak around with. I would venture a guess it's near worthless in thick bush when stalking to within shooting range of game. The other issue is the weight and balance. I just don't think these things were meant for the stealty kind of stalks that are typically required in Africa. From the hide it's a magic wand of death. However trying to carry it around is your worst nightmare. After a day of lugging that thing around most guys rethink the system and go with a rifle. Funny the practice they had at home was all shooting and no carrying around.

One guy said that he thought it was a waste of time to drag that thing across the ocean and an even bigger waste to try and wrestle it through the bush. Come to think of it, this is likely why the mechanical safety concernes me so much. With the bow string able to hangup so easy and tug on the safety plenty often it's just a bit spookey to have that thing pointing at your a$$ when crawling ahead of your client. Not to mention that you just don't bump the end of it without a serious injury. The broadhead is sticking out the end and will cause serious injury if even lightly bumped! Add to that the bow mounted quiver with the arrows bumping and hanging up on every branch and vine.

For these reasons I think injured or handicapped people would go back to a conventional drawn bow if they could. A crossbow has significant advantages from a hide or blind or treestand, or in cold weather. However it's a boat anchor with bells and rattles if you want to stalk with it. In that case a conventional bow is better and safer, hands down.

You or someone has to get it to the blind or stand. That is one place the regular bow has the advantage. We are not saying that the crossbow does not have some good points, but that it is not the Angel of death that some would have everyone believe. miles

I find walking through the woods with a crossbow is no more difficult than a bow both can get hung up in stuff just as a gun can. Both have their plus's and minus's. Funny thing is you do not see crossbow hunters saying that they should out law bows but you sure see bow hunters saying that about crossbows. Bottom line is they both launch a arrow and I do not think I am any more accurate with my xbow than I used to be with my compound. SO I really do not see why the bow hunters get in such a big sweat over the usage of crossbows. Ignorance of the weapon I guess. Jim

JJ, it was you that introduced the "100% of the time" stipulation into this question......that why I said I can't do it and neither can you or anybody else........I would also add that the ONLY way a crossbow can be held steady for any length of time is with a rest......

I'm not worried about improving my debating skills.......I'm not trying to change the law or the world......just trying to put some facts into the discussion and debunk some of the BS that always goes along with it.........

Now, I'd still like to hear which states have outlawed 85% let off compounds.....or did you forget that question???

If this interestes you do the research. There is a poster at the archery club I frequent in Mequon Wisconsin. It showed all 50 states and the minimum draw weights and let off allowed. I found it amusing that most allowed up to 65% letoff and a few up to 80% *with special needs*. For starters Montana, Washington, Idaho, and Colorado will be sending you home with a ticket if your using an 85% letoff bow. I live in Wa. State but travel extensively. I'm in Mequon Wisconson once a month for a 4 days to a week at a time. Funny how so few states allow crossbows? Why is that do you think?

JJ

Well, I learned something today! I did find it funny that one of the states with a mandatory maximum of 80% let-off leaves a enough "wiggle room" for "variations in let-off" which, in effect, allows bows with 85% let-off!

I find it very interesting that the legal bow definition in at least one of the states you mentioned is word for word the same as that of the Pope&Young club......makes one wonder who is pulling the strings in that state........

I do not have the regs in front of me but as far as I know WI does not have any stipulations as far as let off goes.

JJ, Appreciate your thoughts and I am more than willing to discuss this with someone who does not go postal over their interpretation of what should be. Do have a couple of comments.

While I agree with your comment that most people can not draw and hold a compound for a minute, I would submit they can not hold a crossbow much longer. All the weight is at the far end and it quickly begins to waver. Same is probably true for a rifle, although the balance appears to be further back and thus easier to hold a little longer. How many times have you seen someone raise up from a rifle and then go back to shoot, because the rifle started to wiggle. Same with a crossbow, althought again, with the weight forward it seems to be more of a problem. That is based on my experience but that might be influenced by my bad shoulders.

Second, your tree stands must be different than mine as we have no way to "prop" up the crossbow. This is where I have a real issue. No where to comfortably hold the darn thing that does not have a knee, hand, etc. going though the string, which is at full cock. The safety on my Excalibur seems great but it is like having a body part in front of a rifle barrel. Just does not make you comfortable. Since there is no where to prop the thing, you keep it on your lap and have to bring it up to the shoulder to shoot. Much more obvious to deer as you are not bringing a bow strait up or a rifle, which has a small cross section but a bow held sideways. Lots of relative motion that deer seem to pick out much better than the conventional bows I used to hunt with. At least that is the case with me.

In a hide, where you might have horizontal lines, I can see where this might work better but not in the tree stands where I hunt.

Finally to address the penetration. Do not know the physics but have been told part of the problem with crossbows, versus regular bows, is their relatively short stroke. They have less time and distance to impart energy to the bolt and since it is lighter than normally used (mine are 350 grains vs the 450 grain arrows I used to shoot) they do lose energy faster. Thus you have to be close to use them. To me that is the real challenge in bow hunting of any type. Being close enough to see their eyes blink. To me, that is the essence of bow hunting, no matter which type of bow you use. JMHO TM

T-Man, you're spot on with the weight of an unsupported Crossbow. It is a bugger to shoot freehand. I always built rests into my stands for the clients to use. Much less stress and tracking for me then they can make a quick easy shot. Also being above the line of sight and not having to stand up was always a bit of an advantage. I know I shot quite a few animals using my elbows on my knees as a rest. With a Bow I have got to stand to shoot much of the time. I have shot it kneeling and sitting but over the years I think almost all my shots have been while standing.

You may not be able to always use a rest with a crossbow bow but if it's available at least you can if you wish. with a conventional bow you have to hold the bow steady and aim, and hold the draw weight back. If there is a rest available near by you can go over and sit on if after the shot though!

I was trying to stay out of this thread until I spent more time shooting and testing the various claims about crossbows vs bows.

It does seem that there is about as much ignorance on the part of crossbowers towards bows as there is by some of us bowhunters towards crossbows.

Yes, crossbows do require more weight to achieve the same energy transfer because of their short draw stoke. This is because the string is accelerating over a longer distance with bows. This is also true with archers shooting bows that have shorter draw cycles than the 30 inch listed standard for most published bow velicities. In many cases, 1 inch of draw length will equal about 10-15 lbs of draw weight. Most shorter bowhunters are actually getting about 30-40 fps less than what the manufacturers publish. 31-32 inch draw archers get more velocity but might have a more difficult time with other aspects of setting a bow up to be at it's best and getting good broadhead flight.

T-man, you might want to try going to a heavier spined shaft, not necessarily to give you more downrange velocity but to reduce the force being absorbed by your crossbow. This is most likely why you are complaining about crossbows being noisier.

As for the 65-80% let off on compound bows. I might be the exception but I don't necessarily find the 80% let off bows easier to shoot accurately on a bow that pulls over 70 lbs of peak weight. I hunt with a bow with about a 62% let off because I shoot it more accurately than I did the ones with such a drastic let off.

As for method of firing, if someone thinks a Tru-Fire trigger release is a smooth as even an old 1903 Springfield trigger let alone a 2.5 - 3.0 lb custom trigger, they are kidding themselves. Release aids for bows, are not near as simple to use as triggers for shoulder fired weapons.

I also think due to the more physical nature of shooting a bow and holding at full draw while making a smooth release, many bowhunters shoot their weapons year round to stay proficient and allow their muscles to be in shape to be able to draw a bow when it really matters. Those are probably the archers that can come close to the level of accuracy you are saying most bowhunters generally have. Where, the average crossbow shooter that has spent any reasonable time behind a rifle, could probably pick up and shoot a crossbow (from a rest) 1-2 days a year prior to the season and be ready to place 3 bolts in a 3 inch circle at 40 yards. Even most advanced bowhunters would struggle with this.

Also, shorter bolts/arrows generally fly better with broadheads. Without worrying about broadhead planing, tuning a crossbow to hunt with should be easier.

If crossbows are so similar to bows, maybe someone should try getting the Olympic committee to allow crossbowers to compete against archers using bows.

Why not give crossbows their own hunting season? Why try to say they are no better than compound bows or that hunting seasons should not be divided into classes and cry snobbery or discrimination when anyone disagrees with you? I personally wouldn't mind seeing 4-5 distinct hunting seasons, it would give me a good excuse to purchase a crossbow or carry them in my shop. Heck, I think general firearms season could probably be reduced a few weeks in many places anyway. I'd be for replacing some rifle/shotgun time in states that have 2-3 months of firearms season with crossbows or handguns only or at least allowing the use of these weapons during rifle season.

Also, most people do use a rest when hunting with a rifle. However, I have shot plenty of deer offhand with a gun because circumstances dictated I did so. Although, I always prefer some type of rest to make a better shot. If inability to use a rest 100% of the time with a crossbow is criteria for inferiority, then does that make rifles no better than bows? If the range of crossbows are truly limited to only 40 yards, I cannot see how shooting one off-hand at that range would spell disaster.

Again, I'll hold off until I do some testing but I'm betting a modern crossbow is more like a 50-60 yard weapon when properly set up and shooting from a rest, accuracy (tightness of groups) will be about the same as I get with my bow at 25 yards.

T-Man, I realize trajectory is still an issue with both weapons, but you admitted youself that you are handicapping your crossbow by the bolts you choose to use. I also realize crossbows have many of the same external influences as bows that make longer shots questionable/unethical. All, of these issues apply to guns as well, it's just at significantly longer distances.

If I find that crossbows are the weapons you claim them to be and do not give someone a very significant advantage over bows, I will come on this website and admit that I was totally wrong. I suggest for those of you not injured and still capable of drawing a modern compound, go purchase one or borrow from a friend and try to do some of the same things with a bow and arrow that you are capable of doing with a crossbow.

7mmSAUM

You make many assumptions that are based neither on fact nor experience......but on what you have heard or read!

I'd be willing to bet that most crossbows users also have extensive experience with conventional bows........so don't be so sure that we are making uneducated assumptions about compounds!

I am glad to hear that you are planning to actually shoot a few crossbows to see for yourself! I would enjoy watching you try to put 3 broadhead tipped arrows in a 3" circle at 40 yards offhand the first time you try it! I believe you would be in for a real surprise! Oh yeah., be sure you start out with a crossbow/bolt/broadhead combination that has NOT already been set up and tuned by someone who knows what they are doing.......then come back and tell us how well it shoots at 40 yards! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

7MMSUAM, Short on time this morning but I will say that we had a little impromtu shooting session last fall, when we were getting ready for bow season. Myself and 4 guys I know well, who are all very exerienced bowmen. Shooting at life like deer, bear and turkey targets, they all agreed, the crossbow was a good weapon at 30 yards and they would be comfortable shooting something with. At 40 they said they would all prefer their compounds.

Never tried shooting one with a rest but assume they would improve the accuracy some. Problem is, the way we hunt, there are no easily accessable rests. Might be a tree limb or fence post occasionally but nothing you can rely on being there.

Finally, curious to know where you have found a trigger with anything like the feel of a rifle trigger. The best I have found do not come close to even the factory triggers on rifles. My Excaliber has the best I have found to date, after being specially tuned by one of their guys. Most have real mushy triggers will a lot of force needed to release them. As we all know, not conductive to real effective shooting.

JMHO TM

As far as a separate season when would you bow hunters want that for crossbows?? IN WI Bow season starts the middle of Sept and goes until the 3rd week of Nov then rifle season for 9 days then muzzle loader season for another week to 10 days then bow season again until the end of Dec and some places end of Jan so when do you think we should have our own special season! Like I said alot of bow hunters are all me and to hell with the other guy! Notice I said alot as not all are that way but the most vocal are and the ones that are dead set against crossbows. I shoot my crossbow with out a rest and find that I can do it fine but then my xbow only weighs 5 pounds also. 7mm a crossbow is a 40 yard weapon at best as it looses to much energy at longer ranges and has too much of a rainbow trajectory. Every one thinks since they are 150# to 175# ect bows they are very powerful and capable of long ranges which is wrong like was stated before 40 yards is what most manufactures say is the limit for hunting and 30 yards is better yet with 20 and under being optimum. You may hit the target well at 60 yards but the energy is not there and you would have to set up your xbow just for that distance as the elevation would be a lot. Just as you would have to raise the elevation with a bow. I think a lot of folks see that rife stock and figure these xbows work like a rifle which they do not they are and act like a bow. No difference on pulling a trigger on a xbow than pulling a trigger on a release the end result is the same as is the effective yardage and the bow has the advantage in the yardage dept. Jim

GoneHunting, you need to read what I posted again. I did say, "using a rest" and did not say the first time I shot a crossbow. I said shooting a crossbow 1 or 2 times a year, meaning once the CB is set up, it's just a matter of checking everything out to make sure it's hitting where it's supposed to.

Geeze, if crossbows as such big POS, why do you all love them so much?

Anyway, I'll get to see for myself in the next couple of months.

Okay, if the crossbows are no better, and may be worse than compound bows, then why do you want to use them?