Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting So what are you guys afraid of?

Within their limits they are a great system under 40 yards with 30 being more realistic I think for the average hunter just as bows are. If we sound like we are downplaying the crossbow we do not mean to. It is just that those who do not know the crossbow make such outlandish claims about them if we say anything to downplay that it sounds negative. Crossbows and bows within their prospective ranges are both deadly systems. Both should be shot at the ranges the user is capable of wether that be 10 yards or 40. Most bow hunters do not shoot over 40 yards either. It is one thing to shoot at a target over 40 yards out ot a 100 with a bow or crossbow but a far different thing when used for hunting. Like I and others have said 40 yards is max for a xbow at least it is according to my the book that came with my crossbow. Though further shots could be made they are not really being fair to the animal just as folks who shoot long shots with a rifle that normally do not shoot that far in practice. Bows and crossbows loose a lot of speed after a distance bows have the edge on crossbows because of a heavier arrow due to it being longer it holds the energy longer. Just like a Conical has more energy down range than a round ball does out of a muzzle loader. Still those of us that like crossbows do so because it is all we can use if handicapped or just because we like them. Bottom line is if a crossbow makes a guy a better shot than with a bow I see no reason not to use it. ALL sorts of weapons wound animals and unclaimed animals is usually the fault or lazyness of the hunter to track and find the animal. IF one animal could be found because the guy made a better shot with a crossbow than a bow that is arguement for me for the use of one. You can say it about any form of weapons used that some will lose animals but I hear too darn many stories of guys during archery season losing animals they hit and could not find because the main reason was they could not shoot good but would not admit it to them selves. If using a crossbow made them better shots then I am all for it. Though I have to say PRACTICE would make them just as good with a bow as a crossbow. I have heard two many guys in archery shops say I shoot my bow and if I hit the target a couple of times I am ready. Well shooting a target does not equal hunting situations no matter what the weapon used!

My responce to the attacks of crossbow advocates.

1. Bowhunters are just elitist snobs that don't want to share the woods.

Answer: Nonsense. You guys make it sound like we are part of some secret club that other people can't join unless we hold a private counsel and vote them in. The last time I checked "ANYONE" that buys a bow can hunt archery season. How is a supporting a law that excludes "NOBODY" elitist? Am I being elitist if I don't want Muzzle loaders in archery season? It's the weapon being restricted not the people. It's the weapon I don't welcome not the people. I take many people hunting on my land each year and I've helped dozens of people get started in bowhunting. I even gave some of them my older bows when they couldn't afford one of their own. This is a very unfair criticism of most bowhunters I know and is not at the heart of our feelings towards crossbows and their users.

2. Crossbows offer no advantage over a bow.

Admittedly I have not hunted with a crossbow (until last year they were illegal for hunting in Alabama) but I have shot them quite a bit and they do have some significant advantages IMHO. First, they are way easier to learn. Having been an avid firearm shooter my whole life I could pretty much stack bolts out to 35 yards the first time I ever picked one up. Needless to say it took considerably longer to learn to shoot a bow that well. Second, having a weapon that remains cocked and ready laid across your lap is a huge advantage in deer hunting. Drawing a bow with a deer 20 yards away is far more likely to get you busted than gently lifting a cocked crossbow. Third, it eliminates the problem of deciding when to draw. Countless times I have drawn on a deer only to have it stop behind some brush or turn to present a bad shot angle. I don't care if a bow does have 80 percent let off you can't hold it back and wait for very long in those circumstances. It's way easier to lower a crossbow back down to a rested position under such circumstances than it is to quietly let a bow back down after holding at full draw as long as you could. Fourth, a crossbow is aimed like a gun and can be fired from a rested position. A bow can not. Fifth, crossbows by virtue of their design eliminate the problems of canting or torqueing a bow which often plagues bow shooters. Sixth, it rapidly becomes too dark to see through a peep sight on a bow each evening but a crossbow topped with a good light gathering scope would allow you to stay up a tree just as long as a rifle hunter could.

3. Crossbows are no different than bows because they have a similar effective range.

Yes, both do have a similar range but this is not the deciding factor in my book. How far can you consistently hit a deer in the vitals with a pistol using open sights. I'm a fair shot with a pistol but I wouldn't feel comfortable past 40 yards. So by this similar range logic should open sighted pistols be allowed in archery season?

4. Top pro compound bow shooters are more accurate than top crossbow shooters thus proving crossbows offer no advantage.

Yes, it is true that a pro who shoots with perfect, praticed form can consistently do this. The mechanics of the opposing forces with a drawn bow do allow a proffesional to hold it a little steadier than a freehand crossbow. But comparing pros to the rest of us is an apples to oranges type deal. There are olympic shooters that can shoot a peep sighted 22 rifle more accurate than I can shoot one with a scope. Does that mean that for the average person a scope is no advantage over a peep sight? I know I sure shoot more accurately with the scope.

5. Crossbows will draw more people to hunting.

Nonsense, it will merely get the gun hunters out there a little ealier. It will draw no new people to hunting. There are no people sitting out there thinking, "Bows, rifles, muzzleloaders, screw that, but man if they legalized crossbows I'd start hunting!"

If crossbows really offer no advantage over bows then why are people pushing so hard for them in bow season? Who pushes for less effective weapons than the ones already available in a particular season? I mean boomerangs and spears are weapons that we all would agree definately offer no advantage over bows and that being the case oddly enough I never hear anyone pushing for their use during bow season. Yet I see people pushing for crossbows all the time. Hmmmm, odd huh?

All bowhunters I know support crossbows for handicapped people in bow season so that's a non issue but if modern compounds with high let offs are as similar and easy to use as a crossbow then it begs the question; "why aren't all these healthy crossbow advocates using one then." Why are we bowhunters accused of trying to exclude people if modern compounds are virtually the same as a crossbow? Something seems a little inconsistent in those two views expressed by the crossbow side. On the one hand they say a modern compound is actually a better easier weapon than a crossbow but then on the other hand I'm an elitist b#####d that wants to exclude people if I want to require people to use at least a modern compound during archery season.

Bottem line is that this is about money. Crossbow companies are drooling out of both sides of their mouth at the prospect of selling every gun hunter in America a crossbow. They don't know or give a s### what effect it will have on hunting or the game herd in a particular place. Just show me the money baby.

Will crossbows destroy archery season? Well the jury is still out here in Alabama but our gun season is so long and our bag limit so high that I doubt you will see a huge influx of crossbow hunters into bowseason here. The hunting generally doesn't get good here until the weather cools off in late December anyway. Places that have very short gun seasons yet very long bow seasons like Illinois on the other hand could see a big decline in the quality of bowseason.

Traditional (longbow and recurve) bowhunters did!

That's how bowhunting got started in the 1930's. Traditional bowhunters pushed for the legal use of bows during the rifle deer season .

Of course, that was back when bowhunters, as a group, were more interested in experiencing the primitive ways of old, than in getting the jump on rifle hunters for the "trophy bucks".

Would it be okay with you if bow season was held during (or after) the rifle season?

Todd

You make some valid points.......those same points can be made by "traditionalists" who want to exclude compounds!

I'm sure if we were "traditionalists" discussing a ban on compounds, because they make things too easy and weren't the intent of those who worked to get an archery season....well, you would probably be screaming bloody murder in support of compounds......

The thing that irritates me most about compound users, that want to keep crossbows out of archery season, is the fact that they are all for making things easier too.......but they think making it easier should stop at the point where THEY want to draw the line....and that is simply hypocrisy of the worst kind!

I'd like you to answer one question......and I'd like you to answer it truthfully.......

What, exactly, would be hurt by legalizing crossbow use during bow season????

I accept your given example as valid but as even you yourself admit that was a different time and those guys had a very different agenda. People pushing for crossbows now are definately not old school traditionalists desiring the legalization of a form of hunting that presents a greater challenge. You know full well that 95 percent of the people who walked ino the woods in my home state with a crossbow this past season were gun hunters the year before and as soon as gun season opened this past year those crossbows hit a rack on the wall and haven't moved since. Not that this makes them bad people or anything but it's still a fact. Most bowhunters I know on the other hand still bowhunt even in gun season.

Walker,

I think the point he was making is not many of us believe that crossbows are inferior to bows.

In fact, of the 3 people posting on this thread that have experience using both weapons. Only 1 has tried to make the claim that crossbows are inferior and he is using crossbows out of necessity, not necessarily by choice and has admitted to handicapping his equipment somewhat by using lighter spined shafts. Also, he contradicted his argument by saying that if crossbows are more accurate they should be allowed because they are more humane that the many bowhunters that cannot shoot accurately.

The trend has also been to allow the inferior weapon first crack at the animals. Meaning, a crossbow season should fall between blackpowder and archery (bow) seasons and still be allowed during blackpowder and firearms season. If someone were to decide to hunt with a hatchet or spear, their season would go before archery or during archery as their weapon would truly be inferior to a compound bow even if a Master hatchet thrower turns out to be more lethal than an Average archer.

In Alabama as I stated above maybe nothing. Most people can kill so many deer here during gun season that they probably won't fool with crossbows much. Our gun season runs from Nov 20th to the end of Jan. You can kill a buck and a doe a day all season too. Theoretically thats something like 140 deer you could kill in gun season alone. The states that have a tag system and short gun seasons however could be in for a huge influx of hunters into bowseason. Long term you could see bow seasons shortened and tag restrictions placed on residents as well as nonresidents. The first year they allow crossbows in Illinois the demand for NR archery tags will skyrocket so high that I predict we will see them go to a lottery for tags rather than simply selling them over the phone as they do now.



And they were right weren't they. Compound use did pretty much kill traditional archery didn't it?



Well, you have to draw a line somewhere don't you? I mean look at what has happened to black powder seasons. They have become a joke. Modern inlines are as accurate at 100 yards as most factory rifles. They are just as reliable when it comes to firing as well. I've seen them that will shoot 3 to 4 inch groups at 200 yards. In effect you are now at no more of a disadvantage with one of these inlines than you would be with a single shot 45-70 rifle. This is why states like my own have been reluctant to even carve out a specific black powder season. I don't want to see this happen to archery season.

Also, compounds have pretty much hit their technical limit. You really can't make a bow store and release energy much more efficiently than they do now. And even at 80 percent let off most people can't comfortably shoot much more than 70 lbs of draw weight. After all you still have to draw that sucker back till the cams roll over. This fact alone kinda of puts a ceiling on bow power levels.

Crossbows on the other hand, who knows? Until now the market for them has been so small that there hasn't been nearly the research and developement that we have seen in the compound bow world. How much more powerful can they be made? Since you use a cocking device weight is not a limiting factory. Draw lenght is also not an issue as it is with bows. Who knows the upper limit for these things. I bet the guys who used to hunt muzzle loader season with a side hammer flintlock and patched lead balls never invisioned the modern inline either.

Todd

Your post is full of coulds and mights.......but those fears haven't proven true in Ohio, Arkansas and Wyoming......I have challenged anti crossbow people to name states that have shortened seasons or lowered bag limits because of an increase in harvest due to crossbows use during archery season.......I'm still waiting for an answer.....

Same thing with black powder seasons.......I have never heard of a single state that has cut the seasons or lowered the bag limit because of increased harvest due to improved technology.....maybe I've missed it????


You said "that was a different time and those guys had a very different agenda"........well, this is now......things change..... some are willing to change with the times, because of fear, some fight any change......but change is inevitable........

I predict that you will see an insignificant increase, if any at all, in your state's deer harvest due to crossbow legalization.......if I'm right, will you change your mind and support crossbow use???

I've been sitting by and reading these posts carefully. I have been bowhunting ever since I was strong enough to pull the legal weight requirement of 45 lbs. here in Oklahoma. Xbows are not legal in this state unless you have a handicapped permit. I have shot a cross bow and can honestly say that anyone could walk into a store two days before archery seasons opens and buy a cross bow set up and be proficient enough to use it around 30 to 40 yrds in 5 shots or less. I'd like to see someone pick up a modern compound bow, and be proficient to that range in 5 shots or less. Not that easy. If My state opened it up for xbows I'd live w/ it an still hunt w/ my compound. OKlahoma also has a draw hunt for some the biggest whitetails around in a traditional long bow or recurve only hunt. Nobody cries about not letting compounds in it. If they want to put in and hunt there, they pick up a traditional bow and practice and put in and hope they get drawn.

So in order to answer the question at hand "what am I afraid of?" Honestly? I'm afraid of all the people that would go buy a crossbow the day before season and deem themselves bowhunters. When most "notice I said most" bowhunters shoot at least a month in advance and know there equipment inside and out. I'm not saying all people w/ crossbows dont practice and know there equipment. If they opened archery to Xbows I'd say 80% of the people who swarmed it wouldnt. Just my own humble opinion.


Oh yeah one more thing about the treestand w/ no place to rest a Xbow. I have bought two types that I like in last year. I had to REMOVE the shooting rest so I could bowhunt out of them.

My father drew the Ammunition Plant crossbow hunt 2 years ago and I went with him to help.........there were approximately 200 people hunting that weekend with crossbows (see note below).......I couldn't hunt so I stayed around camp and got to see all the deer that were brough in to the check station........out of more than 200 people hunting with crossbows........less than 15 deer were checked in! Only *1* of those deer killed was a decent buck! So much for the idea of it being easy to kill a deer with a crossbow!!!.......by the way, this was the first hunt of the year for the ammunition plant, so the deer weren't spooked from over hunting.......


Do you have any idea how many deer are wounded and not recovered during this "traditional" hunt???? If you have been at the campground and seen all the racks on display.......did you ever ask where they came from??? Most of the sheds were picked up by hunters, but, according to the guys running the hunt, most of the racks were from deer that were shot with traditional equipment, not recovered by the hunter and found dead later! The biggest problem with restricting equipment on that hunt is, contrary to your statement, most of the people that draw the hunt DON'T practice enough to become proficient with their traditional equipment.....the result is wounded and unrecovered deer......lots of them!!!

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the hunters there don't complain about not being able to use compounds.....that's simply not true! The ONLY reason the hunt is restricted to traditional equipment is because of the base commander ........if it wasn't an army ammunition plant, you can bet your bottom dollar that the wildlife dept. would be flooded with complaints about the equipment restrictions.....since it's federal property, the wildlife dept. has NO say in what happens on the base.

This wasn't my first time on the base, I hunted it twice before they banned compounds........


Note:
(100 permits were drawn through the special hunt drawing, there is also a base employee drawing and those hunters that killed a doe the year before got a free pass in the next year)

I would guess you are talking about me my bolts// arrows are of the right spline for my xbow and the use of the 2117's was considerd OK by Barnett who I consulted on this as 2216 and 2117 are of the close to being the same for the same weight of bows according to the charts. Some of you have said that crossbows are inferior to bows I never said that or meant to imply that I feel that they both are effective in their given range and for most folks that is the same distance for most hunters. A lot of bow hunters out there cannot shoot for crap and you know it I bet you have heard the same "I hit 3 deer and never got any stories" I have been trying to convey the point here all along that I think crossbows are not that different from bows or the results obtained and should be allowed during bow season. If your inferior idea stood up than muzzle loader season would be before rifle season in a lot of states and it is not. I still say bottom line is that crossbows are no more different than bows with out the human factor as that does make a difference with both methods of hunting. I think SOME bow hunters do not want any more folks in the woods so yea they are selfish in my opinion. I still say every one says give them their own season well when do you propose that with all the seasons now? No matter where you would put it some one would complain and since it shoots a arrow I still say it belongs in archery season. The only disadvantage I see of the crossbow is no second shot or at least not a fast one. And if you shoot like you should then you should not need it. Jim

Kilincats I say the same thing with a compound bow I have seen kids at the local sport and hunting show pick up compound bows and releases and hit the targets after 10 minutes of instruction. They did well after the sights were adjusted to them. It is not that hard to shoot a bow with compounds and releases and good sights so you can hit a target. IT IS A OTHER THING TO SHOOT A BOW GOOD WHILE HUNTING AND THAT ALSO INCLUDES A CROSSBOW! Lots of variables enter hunting that you never see at a target range. SO what transpires at a range does not equal into what happens in the woods.

Yes I have hunted it a couple times(after the compound ban) and yes I have seen the antlers including the 240 something on the wall tha was found w/ an arrow in it. Do you think that if they let over 1500 physically able hunters a year use a crossbow instead of traditional that they would still have the same quality of deer? NO. How many deer did those 200 Xbow hunters wound? YOU dont know that just like you dont know how many deer are wounded by traditionalist. Some yeah on both sides.

I think Xbows are a great way to get people that ARE physically handicap into archery. If the laws change, so be it I'll still head to the woods in the first of october w/ my bow. But as the law is, in most states, if you wanna hunt in archery season, get a bow.(unless your physically challenged) If you wanna change the laws? Talk to the Wildlife department. Your not gonna accomplish anything in here. I have said my peace and I will leave it at that.

Probably about the same quality of deer that they would have if they let 1500 physically able people a year use compound bows!




Well, heck, if crossbows are as deadly as you guys claim.....then they shouldn't have wounded any???? Right??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, but there are states that don't offer a specific black powder season and probably won't because they no longer consider them primitive weapons. There are other states that don't allow rifle hunting and probably won't ever because they already have a black powder season and consider a rifle season to now be a redundancy.



I have already stated that in my state it may not make much difference but thats due to the specific circumstances of the deep south. Bow season here is hot; the mosquitos eat you alive; the deer don't move much in daylight when the temp is still hitting the high 70's every day; and we have a long gun season with very liberal bag limits that stretches across all of the prime hunting time. (rut, colder weather, etc..) End result, our gun hunters don't feel too cheated considering those circumstances and you really have to have a strong passion for primitive weapons to hike through the Alabama woods with a climbing stand strapped to your back in October. But just because the sky doesn't fall doesn't make something the right thing to do. I still disagree with the decision as a matter of principle. There were no crossbow groups or large groups of hunters asking for this in Alabama just reps from crossbow companies in secret closed meetings with our conservation advisory board.

So, if crossbow legalization doesn't really hurt anything.......you would still oppose it "as a matter of principle".....right????

Let's see.......if legalizing crossbows allows more people to get out and have fun hunting......but it doesn't have any effect on the deer harvest and it doesn't keep those who want to use compounds from doing so......what "principle" would cause you to oppose it??? Are we back to the "selfish" reason again????

Sorry, but I just don't get it????

I see 2 distinct types of attitudes here.......on one hand, we have people that want to encourage as many as possible to enjoy hunting.......on the other hand, we have people that want to exclude as many people as possible because they are afraid they will somehow be inconvenienced......isn't that about right???

By the way, what's in it for the conservation advisory board???......are they getting kickbacks from the crossbow industry??? Or, do you think it's possible that they simply want to maximize the opportunities for people to hunt??? Maybe they know that legalizing crossbows will encourage more people to hunt during archery season without significantly effecting the deer harvest.......

Todd your fears of the crossbow getting more tech than bows is all hogwash. Since a crossbow is exactly that a bow it cannot get any more tech than the bow it copies. That is why there is compound crossbows and still the recurve type, and straight prod type just as in bows.

Blah Blah Blah, you folks are still at this? Don't you have familys or jobs? Do you think about anything else? I'm not sure I have ever seen as much drivel for this long since this site began. Why not go shoot those crossbows for a while and give this non-sense a rest. Lets face it nobody here is gonna change your minds, nor will you change theirs. You're going to be typing the same replies over and over until kingdom come.

JJ

Guess you don't have anything better to do than to rag on us for not having anything better to do????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />