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Matching the target to the reticle is important.

This target works quite well when the thin part of the reticle appears thinner than the + part of the target:

http://targetz.com/targetzlib/10058.pdf

It's better than a plain round dot because it helps eliminate even small cant errors. This cuts down horizontal dispersion in the groups, particularly if your POI is several inches above POA. Using it at 100 yards it's no problem to shoot sub-half inch groups with a 6x scope and regular duplex reticle.

HR IC

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I would like to try to clarify what I was trying to say. Hunting and competition, or informal target shooting are entirely different things, and require different equipment.

When I want to test a particular load, or test a new bedding job, or even a new rifle, I use the most powerful scope I have available, and also the steadiest position, usually a tightly rolled up sleeping bag on a bench. I have never felt comfortable using sand bags, especially with a hard recoiling rifle.

When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills. If the loads or rifle will not group using a high magnification scope and a steady rest, then there is no point in trying to test the equipment from the standing position.

Then, when I know the capability of my loads and/or rifle, I use the scope best suited to the hunting conditions, and shoot from field positions. I suspect very little game is shot from a bench rest.

As far as a high magnification scope for load and rifle testing--the higher the magnification, the better you can see your aiming point, and the better you can aim consistantly, and for load testing, seeing your aiming point the same for each shot is what is important.

That is why bench resters use high magnification. Bench rest groups are measured in thousandths of an inch. A miscalculation in aiming of only a few thousands can be the difference in winning or losing. With a 24 or 36X scope, you can tell if you are off your aiming point by a few thousandths. You cannot do this with open sights and long yardage.

For load and rifle testing, this type of precision is not necessary, but if you are expecting 1.5 MOA from your equipment, then you need to be able to determine if you are consistantly within 1.5 inches of your aiming point, and higher magnification helps you to do this. You want to eliminate as much human error as possible.

Then, when you get to the target range or the game fields, you know what you can expect from your equipment, so then you work on eliminating the human error.

There is no point in entering a competition with equipment that is not capable of shooting a perfect score. Therefore, you test the equipment using the best means available, then work on your ability to shoot a perfect score.

There is also no point in shooting at a game animal at any distance, even 50 to 500 yards if the rifle is not capable of being accurate enough to hit the animal at the range you are shooting it.

So yes, I think there is a place for high magnification and a steady position when testing the capabilities of your equipment.

Even if you are going to hunt with open sights, there is nothing wrong with using a high magnification scope to test the loads and rifle at the ranges you expect to see an animal. If the rifle and loads are not capable of hitting what you are aiming at, regardless of sighting equipment, then you need better equipment.

Put another way, if your rifle is not capable of hitting a deer sized animal at 50 yards, even with a 10X scope, then using less power or even open sights is not going to improve your rifle's capability.

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I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with using high mag scopes for testing, I do it all the time. But I am of the opinion that it's nowhere near as necessary as some folks believe.

When testing at 100 yards to find good hunting handloads, a shooter is pretty well equipped with a quality scope topping out at 9x or so. I guarantee that if you, your rifle and load are capable of a half inch group at 100, then a 6x scope and the target I linked above will let you do it.

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"Are you standing with 1234567 in stating there are no optics used in High Power at Camp Perry?"

Unless the rules have changed recently, the High Power matches at Camp Perry and other places, where the same rules apply, iron or open sights are used on both service rifles and NRA match rifles.

Scopes are allowed in some smallbore matches, and also in BullsEye pistol matches. Some of them, but not all.

The 1000 yard Leech cup is iron sights, only. No magnification allowed. The 1000 yard Wimbelton is any rifle, any sights. In this match, you can use either a scope or open sights, except if you shoot in Service Rifle class. Then, you are restricted to open sights. Most shooters, most likely all, using match rifles in this competition, use a scope.

The Palma matches are limited to open sights, also called peep or aperture sights. No magnification.

I have shot in 600 yard any rifle, any sight matches, but not at Camp Perry, and I have also shot in 600 yard Service Rifle matches, where the only sights you could use were the aperature sights as issued on the M1 and M14. They did not have glass in them, either front or rear.

Perhaps you are confused by what is optical sights and what are open sights. Optical sights are like the Aimpoint and telescopes. The iron sights are also known as peep sights, or aperture sights. There are no magnification lens allowed in this type sight, although I have heard of special inserts being allowed to aid shooters with failing eye sight, but these by no means take the shape or form of a telescopic sight.

As far as the name calling, read back over the threads and see for yourself who started with the first name calling.

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[quote=mathman]I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with using high mag scopes for testing, I do it all the time. But I am of the opinion that it's nowhere near as necessary as some folks believe.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, either. The purpose when testing is to reduce human error.

The first scope I ever owned was a 4X, and I shot some fairly smally groups with that rifle/scope combo, but I would have never entered a bench rest match with it.

When testing loads at 100 yards, I like to have a small, but definate aiming point. I move the point of impact an inch or two away from the aiming point, so that I can see the bullet holes in the white paper with a 9 or 10X scope.

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The NRA classifies "sights" or optic sighting systems in section 3.7 as being one of the following; metallic (corrective or non corrective), telescopic or any.

I understand each of them completely, and understand exactly where they are allowed and not allowed in classification and in the individual match competitions.

There are a LOT more classifications than Service Rifle. I know them well, having actually shot there.


Simply put, higher magnification does not make up for fundamental shooter error. Some wish to think so, but it simply is not true. Magnification is often a crutch for eye focusing, and if the resolution and clarity is not there the result might be poorer results.

One can use what they are comfortable with. But for many years fantastic groups and results on game and enemy combatants were obtained using little to no magnification. Still happening today.

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Campfire Kahuna
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Originally Posted by 1234567
I would like to try to clarify what I was trying to say. Hunting and competition, or informal target shooting are entirely different things, and require different equipment.

When I want to test a particular load, or test a new bedding job, or even a new rifle, I use the most powerful scope I have available, and also the steadiest position, usually a tightly rolled up sleeping bag on a bench. I have never felt comfortable using sand bags, especially with a hard recoiling rifle.

When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills. If the loads or rifle will not group using a high magnification scope and a steady rest, then there is no point in trying to test the equipment from the standing position.

Then, when I know the capability of my loads and/or rifle, I use the scope best suited to the hunting conditions, and shoot from field positions. I suspect very little game is shot from a bench rest.

As far as a high magnification scope for load and rifle testing--the higher the magnification, the better you can see your aiming point, and the better you can aim consistantly, and for load testing, seeing your aiming point the same for each shot is what is important.

That is why bench resters use high magnification. Bench rest groups are measured in thousandths of an inch. A miscalculation in aiming of only a few thousands can be the difference in winning or losing. With a 24 or 36X scope, you can tell if you are off your aiming point by a few thousandths. You cannot do this with open sights and long yardage.

For load and rifle testing, this type of precision is not necessary, but if you are expecting 1.5 MOA from your equipment, then you need to be able to determine if you are consistantly within 1.5 inches of your aiming point, and higher magnification helps you to do this. You want to eliminate as much human error as possible.

Then, when you get to the target range or the game fields, you know what you can expect from your equipment, so then you work on eliminating the human error.

There is no point in entering a competition with equipment that is not capable of shooting a perfect score. Therefore, you test the equipment using the best means available, then work on your ability to shoot a perfect score.

There is also no point in shooting at a game animal at any distance, even 50 to 500 yards if the rifle is not capable of being accurate enough to hit the animal at the range you are shooting it.

So yes, I think there is a place for high magnification and a steady position when testing the capabilities of your equipment.

Even if you are going to hunt with open sights, there is nothing wrong with using a high magnification scope to test the loads and rifle at the ranges you expect to see an animal. If the rifle and loads are not capable of hitting what you are aiming at, regardless of sighting equipment, then you need better equipment.

Put another way, if your rifle is not capable of hitting a deer sized animal at 50 yards, even with a 10X scope, then using less power or even open sights is not going to improve your rifle's capability.



Dumbphuck,

Your IMAGINATION is taking you places again. Though points for your "high magnification/sleeping bag" quantifications. Points also awarded for: "When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills",which is both a dichotomy and an oxymoron,kudos!

Do tell some about your Imaginary rifles,their Imaginary scopes and their Imaginary loads...frosted copiously of course wih your Imaginary "results".

Laffin'!.................


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Originally Posted by mathman
..... Using it at 100 yards it's no problem to shoot sub-half inch groups with a 6x scope and regular duplex reticle.


Yes.....I understand the mind set of the higher magnification regimen.This is fine for folks with lots of time,and interested in ultimate preciison;.... assuming you are getting Mathman's 1/2" groups with your hunting scope,you can investigate further if you like.

Personally I would rather spend the precious range time working more on "myself",from field positions,ie., field prone, off hand, etc;and watching the rifle over an extended time frame for consistent maintenance of "zero" from these positions, .....none of this is accomplished too well from a bench rest with bags,chasing smaller groups.

Plus,personally, I hate swappping out scopes on rifles for nebulous returns.If I'm gonna hunt with a 6X,I'll do my load work with it as well.My experience has been that I am not leaving anything on the table.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Here you go, even if they are from the bench. I'm thinking 24x is not going to change the fact that these combinations are ready to hunt and any misses will be on me.

8x 100 and 200yd.

[Linked Image]

8x @ 200.

[Linked Image]

8x @100.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Switching between 6x and 5x @ 100 and 200.

[Linked Image]


laissez les bons temps rouler
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Originally Posted by stillbeeman
...BTW, Top, where are the other two shots in your "groups"?


I'm not shy about shooting 5 shots,
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Not shy about shooting 10 shots either,
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

IC B3

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10X, 560 yards

[Linked Image]

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10X, 1120 yards. no trouble bisecting the 5" box I drew in the middle with a fat sharpie.

[Linked Image]

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Campfire Kahuna
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Still cracks me up.

705yds 6x42.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


RINK


100yds

[Linked Image]


MPAJ offa ruck,while laffin'..................


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Big Headed Kid,after just having shotta clean at 1K with a belly full,ala 6x42. MPAJ offa ruck.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

He done bought him a like rifle,so chambered...curiously enough................(grin)


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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That'll work!

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Campfire Kahuna
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I wish Leupie would do a Mk4 M1 6x Duplex.

The M3 version is close,but no ceegar................



[Linked Image]



Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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That'd be nice.

BBMF looks like a nice rig. Are you shooting the Hornady 75gr BTHP? 9 twist?

I was considering that bullet for a mag length load in my 16" AR. Decent BC, but I didn't know if it needed 1/8 to fly well.

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Campfire Kahuna
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Never seen a 9" that wouldn't do them proud. Go A-Max and all bets are off in 9".

They dig deep and don't do a bad job in a Utility role....................



Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Im throwing this up in general and not at anyone in particular. Regarding the use more magnification for load development I still have not come up with a great reason to do it. For the sake of arguement I will say the best you can shoot at 6x is 1moa and going to a 24x for load development cuts your groups to 1/2moa. If your gonna switch back to a 6x scope for hunting what is the point? It seems your admitting to yourself that 1moa is the best you can do so what good does it do to use more X for testing then throw a 6x back on for hunting? It just seems like an exercise in futility and waste of components to build a 1/2 moa load if you cannot extrapolate that potential into field use with your 6x scope.

Im not shy about magnification either, shooting the tiny fricken squirrels we have in low grass I have no problems turning it up to 12-16x at even a hundred yards to be able to find them.

For me the most telling example was beating up plates from 400 to 700yards this last summer (think max was 785 but dont have my notes in front of me). I was trying to illustrate the point of using a FFP reticle to my buddies and how well it worked as a holdover tool without having to worry about being at an exact magnification. I had new shooters ringing the heck out of those plates from about 6x to the 14x and the hit ratio did not appear to be noticable affected by the magnification, I was simply calling out the mil holds for elevation and wind as they moved from target to target.


Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.

"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper

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Reality is,it's very easy to hold/shoot sub .25MOA with 6x at 100.

Folks wanna blame X's for all sortsa schit that ain't so...............


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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