Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Indian wars/buffalo extermination period 45-70 bullets

A friend is writing a book and needs to know what the most popular grain weight bullet was used by the military and the buffler shooters. Also, what Ideal mold Number if anyone knows. Thanks

No offense, but if your friend wants to be HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, he would be better served to buckle down and do some serious research of his own,......

How in the hell anybody could generate historical text from what a friend gathered off the internet, and call it veracious just flat eludes me.

There's a VAST compendium of great lore on this subject at your Bud's fingertips,...tell him to get his nose into it.

GTC

The best way to see what the buffalo hunters used is to look in the Sharps and Remington Catalogs from the time period.They used anything and everything they could get ahold of from 38 to 50 caliber.
The Goverment used a 45 cal 405 gr greasegroove bullet, except for the few 50-70's, and spencers that were still in service until the 30-40 krag was adapted in 92.

No offence taken. He writes fiction and is really not interested in the historical aspect. I suppose he just wants to be in the right ball park, so to speak. Thanks

That would mean he is a historian, then

Good point except that he is an old school conservative realist.

Brings to mind a quote that I believe I heard from Russel Means along time ago; "Historians are the most powerful bearings in the universe....because even God can't change history"

I wonder how many people out there have formulated there histoical perception of the "wild" west on the backs of such great "historians" as Louis L'Amour and Zane Grey. Instead of doing the hard research required and sifting out the facts from the fiction. (We could also bring into this the movie industry and great works of truth like "True Grit" the present and/or past works. NOT. Or "Lonesome Dove" which at least was based on a modicum of real life)

Conservative or democrate in sheeps clothing, fiction is just another word for lying.

473 gr

I'll post this for Mr. Dah and it may give a good start.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

Thanks Bro Sulpher. I was getting this info for our friend Bro Dubicus Texicus. He is working on Part II of his latest novel.

no doubt but most enjoy a good story now and then.......mostly read nonfiction stuff but do read a bit of fiction and also enjoy suspending disbelief and enjoy movies though i watch documentaries more than anything.....

Well, for most of the 1870s, the rel impetus for any buff hunter to even USE a 45-70 was the availability of US military ammo. Most serious buffalo hunters did NOT use a 45-70. They used larger cased rounds like the various .40& .44 Bottlenecks, 45 2 7/8" straights, and 50 2.5" etc. etc.

The most commonly used Military bullet in the 45-70, was a 405 grain slug. If a civilian shooter reloaded his cartridges with something he considered "better" that might include a 450g to 500g slug- grooved or patched etc.

Actually, if his story's protagonist MUST use a 45-70 it would be kind of cool and authentic for him to reload his cases with something that "carried" better at long range such as a heavier than than military issue.

I would suggest you mention to him to look into the heavier weight Creedmoor type slugs made from mold by Bridgeport Implement co. etc. A character using cheap and easy to obtain Military ammo and improving it's performance with a target slug design would show that the character has some real knowledge of rifles and is trying to get the most performance for the least amount of cost.

Which is just what modern day owners of .223s and.,308 etc, commonly do to this day..

jim62, very good and thanks a lot. I'll pass the info.

Look at the bullets that are shown for Sharps and other rifles of the era in James Grant's first book, "Singleshot Rifles"

Also, don't call it the .45-70! It was not referred to as such at the time. The cases were listed in length, and not the amount of powder they carried. While the government might have called it the .45-70, the hunters would not have. They would have called it the .45 Government or the 2 inch .45.

Dan

L'Amour is touted as being really historically accurate, but I have not found it so. Same with Elmer Kelton. He has dude's getting some 30-30's before they head back to the homestead after the War Between the States. I can't remember much about readings of Zane Grey when I was a kid. True Grit, from what little I remember about it, is pretty accurate historically. John Wayne's rendition butchered up the weaponry, as his movies usually did, but the newer version is pretty accurate and the book was very much so when compared to other works of fiction. There is a lot more known about the old west than there was back in the sixties when True Grit was written. One would think that some of Grey's stuff was written so far back that he didn't even have to do too much work. L'Amour, for all the hype, was pretty lazy about research on lots of stuff, weaponry being foremost in my mind. He like to arm his characters with stuff that was different than the usual 30-30 (in books) and SAA, so lots of people think he is accurate. Lots of people say that McMurtry plagiarized whole parts of Lonesome Dove. He is better than L'Amour with his weaponry, but certainly in the same vein. With as much research as has been done in recent years, there is really no legitimate excuse for not arming your characters accurately.

As an aside, some of McMurtry's writing is nonsensical. It doesn't add up. For instance, the shooting of the Buffalo Hunter on the Staked Plains in Lonesome Dove. Gus makes a scratch shot with his Henry and it is treated as such. The two hunters and the Kiowas recognize that he only has a lever gun which has a very limited range compared to the scoped Sharps that the hunter is shooting. Gus makes the shot and they get scared and ride out of range. Then in other places and in other books, McMurtry refers to the Henry as a "buffalo gun" or some such. In Cadillac Jack, he has one of the supporting characters purchase an antique Henry and then visualize Buffalo as he sights down the barrel. Of course the character is a Democrat so maybe it is understandable, but still...

Not exactly Dan. The old cartridge designation would be 45-70(or 75)-405,or 45-70-500,or 45-70-550. 45-75 was merely the Sharps designation for the same round. They just liked being able to put their name on it is all. 45-70=45 2.1", 45-90=45 2.4" 45-100=45 2.6",45-110=45 2.8". Bullet weights for the big 45's ranged from the 340 "Express" bullet to the 550 grain bullets. Most common hunting bullets for buffler started at 500 grains. 540 grainers appear to have been fairly popular. Papr patched ammunition was used mostly because it kept the barrels from fouling with lead and gave good accuracy. They tended to be a bit heavier than the GG bullets also.

Actually a quick check of the catalogs from the time period designate what we call the 45-70 now as the US Government 45.Usually loaded with a 405 gr bullet.The government adopted the 500 gr bullet in 81 so that leaves it plenty concievable that buff could of been shot with a 45-70-500. If you think some guncrank on the plains didn't stuff a 500 gr bullet in his 2.1 case.
The 40 caliber bottlenecks were very popular hunting rounds even in the buffalo hunts and anything over a 390 gr bullet would of been a custom job of some sort.
The heaviest bullet listed for the 44's was 520 grs with the light end starting at 280 grs.
The 50's limit was 475 grs.
Unless they were pushing over 110 grs of powder in the Sharps 45's the usual bullet was 500 grs , except for the 2.1 sharps case which topped out at 425 grs patched at the closing of the factory.
Cornell publishing is a must for anybody that's got any interest in finding the straight skinny as to what the factories offered in their catalogs at the time.

Let him do his own homework be it fact of fiction.

By '81 the Buffalo had been exterminated from the Southern Plains and the Northern Herd was all that was left-mainly in your area and on north. In five more years it was all over. It is doubtful, with the progress in cartridges, that many 45-70's of any stripe, were being used on the Buffalo range by that time. The 45-70 and 50-70 were the cartridges that started it all, soon eclipsed by the time the focus went from northern Kansas and Nebraska, by the .44 and then the Big Fifty. By the end of the hunt, they had went back down to the .40's and then up to the .45, but with much larger cases. Full circle.

Cole, I'm not sure where you got your information, but I don't think the 45-70 was one of the cartridges "that started it all". All my sources show the 50-70 and 44-77 were probably the most common cartridges used when the southern herd was being hunted.

Eviltwin

As a writer, I'm trying to get the guy to use the vernacular that would have been used at the time. No one would have referred to it as the .45-70. They would have called it the .45 Government or the Government 45. That's what I was trying to impart. Having read some memoirs from the buff hunters, they didn't refer to the cartridges as they do today.

Dan

Cole you've got that cartridge part just exactly bassakwards. The "hunt" started with the 50-70 and 44-77, then upwards with the 50-90 and 44-90, and then came the 45 2.1 and the 40's, by the time they were done the 45 2 7/8 was the most popular of the buff runners. The standard cartridge of the Sharps rifle by 1877 was the 2.1 , except for the creedmoor guns and that was the 2.4, any other chambering was special order and cost extra.
Remingtons was stuck on the 44's.
The 45 2.1/45-70 was actually the brain child of the Peabody company and was submitted and passed military trials in 1865, so considering the "buffalo trains" ran on the Union Pacific beginning in 1869 it's entirely possible for the "45-70" to have been in on the frakus from the beginning along with god only knows what else they brought with them on the trains.

Source would be memory, which could be mistaken. The Allin Conversion and other 50-70's such as the Rolling Block, would have been the big guns available and used very early on in north Kansas and Nebraska with Sharps rifles in the same caliber quickly becoming available in .44 and .50 calibers by the time the Dodge City herd was being decimated in 1872 and the .45-70-405 arriving on the scene in 1873-74 to correspond with the end of the buffaloes south of the Ark River and down substantially into Indian Territory and even extreme north Texas. Were there not 45-70's at Adobe Walls in 1874? I cannot recall, but certainly afterwards they would have been available in the Sharps as well as the Springfields. The Big Fifty was THE cartridge by Adobe Walls and certainly for a time thereafter IIRC. Just arbitrarily, I would say the early days of the Hunt would have ended after Adobe Walls and the subsequent Red River War where the southern Plains tribes were eliminated as a cohesive fighting force. The development of the .45 into flatter shooting cartridges with more case capacity would surely have superceded the shorter 70 grain case by the latter years of the Hunt of which surely 1881 is one. I ain't looking it up in my Sharps book right now though so if my memory is wrong on all this I stand to be corrected. I did a quick looksee at Getting a Stand and could not find a list of calibers in there just skimming. I did pause and read an interesting tidbit about a blizzard though. It seemed surprisingly appropos today with it having been -14� when I got up and still having failed to reach zero today.

You have to keep the timelines of everything in perspective, by the time the Adobe Walls fight happened the Union Pacific had been running "buffalo trains" for 6 yrs. Ft.Laramie had been doing a brisk hide trade for 40 years, and Cheyenne had streetlights. Sam Hawkens rifle shop was located near the junction of Cherry Creek and the South Platte river in what is now known as Denver.
The 45-70 as the government adapted it happened in 1873. Wingate wrote in his book in 1875 about the Armies attempt at putting 90 grs of powder into that same case to use in longrange competition.He also wrote in that same book of the "explosive" affect of the 50 caliber on game such as buffalo.
Billy Dixon actually owned a 44-90 during the Adobe Walls fight, and a reasonable case can be made that the "shot" may of actually been with that 44-90.
The only 45 caliber cartridge listed by the archealogical report from Adobe walls are the 45government, and 45 vanchoate and 45 colt. None of the long sharps cartridges, and mostly 50's and 44's of varying type.

By gosh Ranch, you are the first person I have ever heard, besides myself and the author of whatever writing I read, who says that Dixon may have used a .44. Everybody just automatically says he used the "Big Fifty" (50-90), but I, like you, think there is a good chance he used a .44. What I have read though differs from you in that he supposedly borrowed the .44 as his own .50 had been lost in a river crossing where one of his wagons overturned.

Btw, the "borrowed rifle" part of your post is the only part I can find fault with. Salutations.

If you look close at Dixon's own account of the fight, he lost his 50 when the wagon tipped over in the creek on the way to Adobe walls. When he got there he bought a 44-90 and a case of ammo. During the fight he took a 50 from the bartender and put it to work. Now here's where I think things get confusing. He says he and someone else had left their ammunition at the trading post, so they made their way to get it. Now I don't think he would of left his 44 with no ammo at the saloon,and took someone else's 50 to get his 44 ammo, don't believe that to have been his character.
That's why I'm inclined to think he actually finished the fight like he started it with his 44-90. But that part most likely would of escaped who ever edited the books, and besides the big 50 has more glitz than a 44 2 5/8ths.

Thanks for the explanation. That sounds right. I agree totally with your last statement, especially.

Great thread guys.

For an interesting read about Buffalo Running, here's a first hand account..

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

Bro Pine, Good read. Thanks

MUCHO better if you find the writings of Willis Skelton Glenn.

My father used to say that an historical novel was like a bustle in that it was a fictious tale (tail) based on a stern reality.

Great read thanks for posting.

I noted, a few years ago, at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, in Cody, Wy., that Bill's 'Lucretia Borgia', now behind glass, in a relic state, was fed with 50 caliber U.S. marked Government ammo, issued to Bill, by the Railroads, so he could supply meat to their track laying crews. Also, but off forum, is the fact that all of the early Sharps were paper cartridge weapons based on the old 1841 Slant Breech model. Remember Beecher's Bibles, anyone? And the Indians among others used 44 repeaters to bring down the beasts from horseback. IIRC, even some whites like Earp, preferred using shotguns from horseback. And to boot, W.B. 'Bat' Masterson was at the second battle of adobe walls. One scholarly account on the net seems to point to multiple brag shots by different customers,and of course, each marksman remembering his kill, as the longest successful shot in that skirmish. Interestingly, no one to date has reproduced the 1841 slant breech weapon, although they are the origin of the term, "ring tailed bullet". I believe Lyman still catalogs a couple of these molds. They only make sense with breech loading paper cartridges. The only repro muzzle loading Sharps made today are on the vertical breech block, model 185?'s. And if that doesn't muddy the waters, consider that the iconic Kansas Jay Hawkers is a corruption of J. Hawken, whose plains rifles were terrorizing the cattle drives as well as the buffalo herds. Bill's trapdoor rifle tripled the effective range against large critters, against PRB's, and it used a weather proof copper cased metalic cartridge, with the 450 gr. army bullet. Today, with the solid head brass, you need the new 50-95 Win. cases to cram 70 grains of FFG under the 450 grain slugs. So to duplicate Bill Cody, or the Wagon Box fight scene in Sheridan, you now need a 50 Win. Express, chambered in a 1 turn in 42" twist, single shot, side hammer rifle. Obviously, no paper cartridge, percussion Sharps rifle, ever left a trail of empty brass in the ground fabric, after a fight. So they have just disappeared into the mists. Go figure!
Thanx,in advance, Indybuster.

The fellas I shoot with regular that shoot the big 50 load anywhere from 105-120 grs of 1f under 6-700 gr bullets in starline 50-90 cases.
It's no big trick to drop in 75 grs of Goex cartridge in a starline 5070 case and seat a 470 gr bullet.

Indy, we were speaking of Hide Hunting which did not come about until they developed a market for them, back east. I ain't looking it up, but I believe Wright and Josiah Mooar were the ones who got the whole thing up and running. Ranch probably can tell you the exact year, but I know it was somewhere around 1870. Hide hunting wasn't profitable until this time and prior to that Buffalo Hunts consisted mostly of "show hunts" for European nobility such as Grand Duke Alexis or meat hunting for railroad crews.

It is debatable as to how much "Buffalo Bill" really did and how much was braggadocio. There were several "Buffalo Bill's" including William Mathewson whose exploits were very real. The meat hunters for the railroads who pre-dated the hide hunters indeed used different weapons and I am guessing that in the days right after the WBTS the 50-70 would have been the top dog, usually in the Allin Conversion.

My memory may be incorrect on this, but I thought the "Beecher's Bible" Sharps were model 1853 Slant Breech. I have never ever heard of the word "Jayhawk" being a corruption of the word "Hawken". While it is probable that some of the early Jayhawkers, circa 1855, probably used Hawkens, most of the original Jayhawkers had been absorbed into units of the Union Army by the time of the first real Cattle Drive, which occurred to the best of my recollection, during the WBTS and was to Sedalia, Missouri. Probably many of the same persons who had "Jayhawked" prior to the war and in its early days were those who enforced the Tick Fever prohibitions against Texas cattle during the post war years. There seemed to be a good business done in basically extorting the Texans near the end of their drives. This started around Baxter Springs, Kansas, for all intents and purposes, the second cowtown. As the railroad moved west, the gangs increasingly became more interested in actually protecting grazing from the voracious Longhorns and also keeping Tick Fever at bay more than some sort of theft-at least the way I understand it. At any rate, by the time period we are speaking of...1864 up through about 1867 or so, the Hawken would have been very obsolete. This normally wouldn't have mattered much, but with the prevalence of the most advanced small arms in-quantity, due to the end of the WBTS (in '65), I doubt the Hawken was much-used by them. By 1864 many Union Cavalry units were armed with the latest carbines, Spencers, Sharps, Starr's and even Henry's. In fact, the second-largest Cavalry action in the war occurred near here at Mine Creek, where these carbines played a pivotal role in saving Kansas and Missouri for the Union. General Sterling Price's Army of Missouri was nearly destroyed and carbines were not inconsequential in its destruction. These guns would have been surely, readily available to those whose enlistments had run out or who decided to disembark a little early.

My buddy was really impressed with all the knowledge shared by you fellars. He said to tell y'all that he had enough to get him through several westerns. He also told me not to get too close to some of you because y'all knew too much. He said, "hell, they know more about bufflers than I do about women and I've been married 3 times".

there-fixed it for ya;)

Later....

p.s. great posts from y'all!