Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Scope for 1885

I tried this on another forum but thought ya'll may have some more insight on scopes in the mid to later 1800's. I have an 1885 Browning in 45-70 that I would like to scope. I found MVA and I think it was Leatherworks. Looking for any other makers. Any experience with any? I will just be shooting mild black powder rounds.

thanks,

Shortgrub

Cabelas carries three models I believe. Don't know the maker but their prices are very competitive.

Midway has a several of the Leatherwood models and accessories/mounts.

I have 4 of the Leatherwood scopes. One of the big 6X on a 45-70 Sharps and 3 of the short 3X on 2 Marlin levers and one on a small Sharps. My opinion is the optics aren't bad once you accept that this style of scope just doesn't gather light like a modern scope. Overall finish is pretty good considering it is supposed to replicate an old scope. The weak point of the whole thing is the mounts. On light recoilng rifles they work pretty good but even light loads in the 45-70 are to much. Should you go this route get the heavy rear mount with the elevation adjustment, nothing else will do. The screws that come with the mounts are soft and bugger up easily and in my case have been slightly under sized in relation to the threaded holes. I replaced them with allen head screws and learned to use liberal ammounts of locktite to keep them from viberating loose. Ihave also shot a friends Sharps with a scope and mount set up sold by Montana Precision. Optics and finish are better. Mounts are far and away better. But they are much more expensive. I am a casual shooter not a serious competition shooter so opted for the less expensive system and after working the bugs out with the mounts have been happy with the leatherwood.

Buffalo Arms sells the Leatherwood scopes with DZ mounts. This is an excellent combo. The DZ mounts are copies of the Unertl, without clicks so they are legal for silhouette. They also have a bit more elevation capacity than the originals. The DZs aren't cheap either at $350 for the pair, but they are worth it, IMO.

Does anybody know if the Leatherwood has any provision for focus or parallax adjustment? I'm wondering if they can focus as close as 50' for gallery shooting like we do here in the winter.

Paul

Paul the literature that came with my 6x short scope says it's good from 10ft to infinity.
If I were going to put one on the 22 I'ld go with the 3x.
You're right about the Buffalo Arms DZ set up, it's first rate all the way.

Paul,

My Leatherwood is a 3X and use the DZ mounts on my low wall .22. I focus easily in 15 ft. I am in the process of putting a 6X on the 45-90 high wall.

I guess I really like the Leatherwood scope and the DZ setup. I'll take both to Alliance in May. I know Don will be there, are you and Pete going?

Well grubbie.......I suggest a tasco 8x32x56

Thank me later.........

We talked match schedules today. We'll probably go to Tornado Alley in May in lieu of Alliance, but plan to make the Sagebrush which is in August, I believe.

Paul

The BEST scope like that would be a 4 or 6X Unertl small game model.
If click mounts are "out" you would have to modify it. Parallax is adjustable from 30' to infinity. It'll cost you $500 or more for a mint one but, it is a Unertl.

What else did you put on the agenda?

Paul yes Harlans match is the weekend of August 7th this year. I thought I sent you the schedule from Jim, but will send it your way again so you can see all the dates for the doings at Alliance.
George you going to shoot scope class or just take the outfit along to give it a good trial?
I was tickled to find out once I got the scope blocks on buttugly that they were still well below my lowest iron sight settings, so if this scope thing isn't my bag I can return to the irons without having to undo the loctite...

Thanks to all for the input. I am just a casual shooter also. Just wanting to try something different. Looks like I'll try one of the Leatherwoods and the better mounts.

Shortgrub

I've not been into the used vintage scope market myself, but from what I understand you'll pay way more than $500 for a minty Unertl. They're fine scopes, to be sure, but for a shooter you're paying for the name and competing with the collectors' market.

Paul

Have any of you with the scopes hunted with them. My Shiloh #1 45-70 may need, as my eyes are not quite what they used to be

Would the DZ mounts be "tough enough" for hunting?

Thanks for your input.

later....

I think the DZ mounts are good enough for hunting , but given the relatively short distance at which these rifles shoot without having to make major sight adjustments I don't think a scope is going to work out well. Altho I have one friend that has killed elk and buffalo with his RHO scope mounted rifle.
I prefer the ladder sights for hunting with my sharps.

MVA is now making a copy of the Winchester A5 scope. Don't know what mounts they offer.

It's a smaller scope, and might work OK for hunting.

Paul

Good point Paul, in this last bpcr news there was a short article on it and apparently they copied the winchester mounts to, and I believe the thing retails out at about 550?

The problem with DZ mounts for hunting would be their being inadvertently moved off of the zero. W/o caps or clicks, they are easily moved.

Brent

I know I have a lot to learn but what are DZ mounts?

Shortgrub

DZ Arms, Dan Zimmerman. Newly manufactured copies of Unertl mounts, without clicks but with additional elevation range.

Excellent mounts, $350 per set.

Paul

Thanks Paul.

Do you think these would have enough elevation in them to shoot 500-600 yds with black powder rounds?

thanks,

Shortgrub

With any normal configuration and cartridge, easily. Plus, the DZs have about .10" more elevation travel than the original Unertls.

I have only shot as far as the 500 meter silhouette ram with a scoped BPCR so far, but I do shoot 1000 with irons on my .45-90 Sharps. There is a point with a scoped rifle where the angle necessary to shoot longer ranges presents some ergonomic issues. Depending on the spacing of your bases, scope is going to be at a considerable angle, with the eyepiece up fairly high. Unless the rifle is stocked with a very high comb, the usual approach is a cheek pad. My son has one that raises the comb a full inch. Otherwise, your face will be so high that you have no cheek contact, not a good situation. What I describe may be a bit hard to visualize, but if you plan to shoot long ranges with an externally adjusted vintage style scope, you have take this stuff into consideration and plan accordingly.

As far as DZ, Dan is pretty accessible and would be glad to answer questions about applications using his rings.

Paul

the shorter scopes will reach further due to the shorter sight base but all are pretty well designed for 500 m (roughly 550 yds).

Has anyone used one of the shorter Leatherwoods that are 6x and 18" long. They are not too expensive and I have a spare set of mounts lying about. The price is under $300 so it seems real doable if they are any good.

Brent

Brent I have one of the 6x18 leatherwoods. The optics are very good. The slide bar and lock ring need a bit of improoving.
I haven't had the opportunity to shoot this setup much yet , but so far the scope and the dz mounts are great.
I think the mounts that come with the leatherwood would probably be ok for a set it to a certain zero and leave it there, but changing settings would be a nightmare.

I forgot to add that I really like the 4 inch eye relief of this 6x leatherwood.

I thought I would probably need a check pad. Any recommendations as where to get one? I would like to have one that looks from the era.

Tim

Off the top of my head:

Cabela's
Brownell's
Creedmoor Sports
Buffalo Arms (maybe) BTW, they are the "toy store" for BPCR. Great wish book.
Shiloh Rifle (maybe)
Best of all, but pricey, is Cheek-N-Stock

I dunno about looks. Most are leather. It wouldn't be too hard to make one yourself, and that might have a sort of period look. Myself, I'd be more concerned about function. You want it to stay put. Best to look around and see some on other folks' rifles.

What Paul said
http://www.cheeknstock.com/

Just another caution, especially for anybody considering hunting with such a scoped rig. Don't expect to have a vintage type scope function and feel much like a modern scope. They are a step backward. The small diameter straight tubes do not transmit light like a modern scope. Their fields of view, eye relief, and eye box are typically more limited. They are less rugged than modern optics.

I'm not trying to be negative or discourage anyone, but these scopes and mounts are a considerable investment, and I wouldn't want anybody to have unrealistic expectations.

Paul

Paul, when Pete uses the cheek pad does the comb height conform to NRA rules, ergo, 3/4" min to CL of barrel?

Pete's cheek piece is made for his Sharps, and he just uses it for long range like Alliance. For scope silhouette I've been using a home made cheek pad.

I checked the rule book. For BPCR no portion of the rifle stock behind the rifle action shall be higher than 3/4" below the centerline of the bore.

However, for scoped BPCR, cheek pieces may be used and may be of any height. Rule 3.4.1.(e)

Makes sense, just like the additional weight allowance for scoped rifles. Without the additional comb height, your face would be flapping around in the breeze on the long targets. I put it on once I get to the turkeys.

Paul