Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Why Do You Muzzleload?

If you're talking about a comparison between a tradtional sidelock and an un-scoped in-line that's a ridiculous analogy.

Here's a better one:

You and your buddy are out at the lake, sailing in a really nice hand-made wooden boat, mahogany and teak, just like people used 200 years ago.

A guy in a boat of basically the same design, with a few modifications that don't really make it sail any better made out of fiberglass and kevlar so it's lighter, more durable, and requires a lot less maintenance, sails by with his 12 year-old son.

The guy looks over, admires your boat, and says "wow, that is a really nice-looking boat."

You say, "it sure is, and it's historically correct. Your boat is ugly and made out of modern materials, you're doing it all wrong, you need to sail like our forefathers did; like we do." And then: "there oughtta be a law aginst sailing in boats like yours."

The guy says "well, I don't go sailing because of what my forefathers did, I go sailing to get out on the water and feel the wind in my face. And to do things with my son." "I have other hobbies I prefer to spend my time on, like restoring vintage cars." And then: "See that '57 Chevy on the shore, that's mine, and if you wanna rag on my sailboat, all I can say is I'd rather pilot this boat and drive that car than be caught dead in that piece of junk you're driving."

And the guy sails off. Then you turn to your buddy and say "what an idiot, he just doesn't get it, he needs to sail like we do."

Let's really drive this thread off the road into the weeds. I spent almost 20 years in the marine industry here in Annapolis, building boats from scratch- from dinghies to 60ft. sport fishers. We stuck to all-wood construction, in both "classic" and "modern" designs. The method we employed was called cold moulding. Basically it consists of multiple layers of thin wood (usually mahogany) planks laid up "on the bias" to each other, bonded with epoxy, over the wooden frame of the boat. A final layer of fibreglass cloth soaked in epoxy went on top. (Then LOTS of sanding.) The finished product is both lighter and stronger than a fiberglass hull, but because of the hellish labor involved is a lot more expensive. My own little sail boat was built that way and to me represents the best of both worlds. The "traditional" and the "modern" boaters all tend to shut up and listen when they realize how it was constructed.

I guess my point is that personal preferences aside (and I won't restart that brouhaha), there is room for every taste, and there is often a middle ground. My chief beef in this whole debate has been that most states screwed up back when they allowed inlines to be used during primitive weapons seasons, but now that it's done I don't see that Genie being shoved back into the bottle.

OK, so why was it a "screw-up?"




I thought sharps already did a good job of that with his bass boat analogy.

You're right. Many of the other 49 are more liberal than Colorado in what they'll allow during the muzzleloader seasons. Plus, I'd be willing to wager a large sum that Colorado gets many more out-of-state hunters than MO, so what happens here affects more hunters than MO.



Nonsense. Unless everthing you use is historically correct, you're just picking and choosing. Do you cook everything over a fire in a cast iron pot?

OK, so why was it a "screw-up?"


Go back and re-read some of my earlier posts to get the gist of my opinion (and that, again if you were truly paying attention to what I've been posting, is just my opinion- take it or leave it, I don't much care either way) , if that's not too much trouble for you!!! How long do you intend to beat this dead horse, or nit-pick the fleas that jump off of it???

Back to the original question.

I like the smoke and the challenge.

I havent read all of these posts but I have seen this topic discussed over and over before. I like traditional and in-lines. I dont understand why everyone that shoots traditional hates inline shooters so much. Im guessing that there are several traditional muzzleloader hunters that hunt during the bow season with a compound bow and not a recurve.As soon as black powder season is over they grab their modern scoped bolt action and head for the woods instead of using their smokepole. Im betting that most of them also use a lighter to light their cigarettes and dont sit on the ground rubbing two sticks together for a flame. Im also betting a lot of them ride 4 wheelers to their stand instead of a horse or walking. I like the looks and feel of traditional guns also but Im not going to hate on everyone who doesnt use the same weapon as I am. A muzzleloader is a steel rod with a hole drilled in it, most have rifling. They are both loaded from the muzzle and use some form of cap to ignite the powder. I suppose the best way to please everyone would be to split the blackpowder season in half, one week for traditional and one week for inlines. Heck most younger people dont have any interest in hunting as much as they used to. If it takes an inline to keep their interest in muzzleloading alive then so be it. I just enjoy hunting.

A little touchy this morning, eh? Personally, I don't think allowing in-lines was a "screw-up," and the question I asked goes to the heart of the OP's original question, so I don't believe it's nit-picking. I also believe as I said before that an un-scoped in-line using similar powders and projectiles offers no real advantage over a traditional cap lock, so what I'm trying to show here is that traditionalists' complaints about in-lines are based on aesthetics and romanticism rather than a rational basis, and are therefore not a good rationale for regulating firearms allowed during ML seasons.

So, I went back and read your first post to get an idea of the basis for your objections to in-lines, here it is:



Interesting that you compare the special ML seasons to the archery season in that I don't know of any states that restrict for example, compound bows, which are more technologically-advanced than my in-line rifles.

The reason compound bows are allowed during archery seasons is that an archer using one still has to get closer to his game than a traditional rifle shooter, draw the bow undetected, and make the shot. (That's easily more difficult than getting within range and making a shot with a caplock, and I've done both). The difficulty inherent in getting close and making the shot is the basis for special early archery seasons. Has nothing to do with whether the weapon is modern or traditional, and everything to do with the difficulty of getting close and closing the deal.

So what's your objection to unscoped in-lines based on? What is it about an in-line ignition that chaps your ass? Are they more accurate than a caplock? Are they capable of higher velocities, if similar powders and projectiles are used as they are in Colorado? Do they offer any real advantage over traditional caplocks?

The answer is no. So what you're left with is this:

"....the ambience of doing it the "old way" is gone."

As you can see by a lot of the responses on this thread, not everyone is interested in "the ambience of doing it the old way."

You can call it "nit-picking" if you like, but I'm not the one who's advocating making it illegal for you to hunt with your chosen weapon. That's your deal, and you're basing it on your particular idea of how things should be done.

The thing is, you can hunt the "old way" all you like and no one's trying to keep you from doing it. Hell, if it's that important to you, out here in Colorado, traditionalists can hunt both the muzzleloader season and the regular firearms season if they want.

Not many hunt the general firearms season with traditional rifles though, because they want to hunt the early season, and want to limit the number of people sharing the woods with 'em.

I'm OK with that, as long as the limitation is based on something rational like the effective range of the weapon and things are on an equal footing, which they are with un-scoped in-lines.

But if someone wants to tell me I shouldn't be able to share the early season woods because I have "no appreciation for the ambience of doing it the old way" I call bullsh**.

And that ain't nit-picking, it's just a basic difference in philosphy.

My philosophy is, if I want the woods to myself, I just need to be willing to walk a few miles back in where others don't go, not limit the people who can hunt when I do based on my own ideas of how it should be done.

smokepole, the analogy wasn't the sail boat versus the bass boat. Sorry you took it that way. The point was the guys attitude towards my simple little boat. All too often I've met with the same attitude from in-line users and cam actuated arrow launching device users. Frequent scoffing at something they're totally ignorant of. If some of the things they've said were remotely close to the truth the human race wouldn't have survived past throwing rocks and sharpened sticks.

Quite honestly Missouri doesn't depend on license sales to the extent other states do. Much of their funding comes from a 1/8% sales tax everyone pays, was voted on by the population and has been in effect for close to 35 years, maybe a couple years more. And I for one am quite happy with our low number of non-resident hunters, especially south of the river. Let 'em go to Colorado!

You're out of line, for me and a few others on here, when you utter "nonsense" about our/my use of techy stuff. You don't know me, you don't know how I hunt or camp and you obviously have no clue as to what I use or and even less of a clue as to what is correct for the period and place. If you think cooking in a cast iron pot is correct for the way I hunt and camp you need to do some research. I'm not packin' that heavy thing. I won't go into detail as to what I wear and use while hunting and camping with muzzleloaders. Let's just say I could step into 1803 Missouri and not raise an eyebrow, if I shed the orange. A strip search would reveal nothing earlier than the time period depicted...right down to the drawers. And others are a lot better at it than me.

What is it you find so appealing about the in-line? Why would you rather use one instead of a cap lock or flintlock? Is Colorado the only state you hunt and if not, when you go to other states do you scope your in-line and use sabots? If Colorado allowed their use would you use a scope and a sabot?

first we had the match lock, then the wheel lock, then more ADVANCEMENTS came along in the version of the Flintlock, and then an even bigger TECHNOLOGY ADVANCEMENT came in the form as the Percussion lock, And now we have the Inline muzzle loader which is again, another step up of the technology advancement of the muzzle loading rifle.

Buddy you really don't understand what I'm saying. First of all, don't go putting words in my mouth. You are inferring that I'm advocating making anything illegal (which if you bothered to read my posts without a pre-formed idea of what it was I was saying) would be apparent. Nor am I advocating that anyone using anything that's different from what I use should stay out of the woods. Sheesh. Put your glasses on. Such draconian measures would be unethical, immoral, and illegal and certainly not what I'm advocating. NOT that I'm advocating ANYTHING!!! I've merely been stating my philosophy, and bemoaning the fact that non-traditional firearms were allowed in the primitive weapons season in the first place--which statement I qualified as being my g*d dam*ed opinion ONLY.

As far as the reference to archery season goes it was in reference to the fact that there IS a seperate archery season, not mentioning a thing about what kind of bows should/shouldn't be legal. Again, I don't give a tinker's damn what anyone uses.

Debating an issue is all of our right pal, and I respect your opinion as I would hope you would respect mine. Just don't go putting words in my mouth.

Well, if you read the post what I said was "unless everything you use is historically correct." So if everything you use is historically correct, obviously I wasn't talking about you. And you're right, I have no clue on what's historically correct for the period and place you're talking about.

So what?



Man, you ask a lot of questions for someone with no interest in in-line rifles.

1) Mine is a T/C Triumph. It's lightweight (important for backpacking) and balances very well, better than the traditional rifles I've handled. The removable breech plug makes it easy to clean without dunking steel in water, something I like to avoid. It's accurate. I'm sure there are traditional rifles out there with similar attributes, but I don't own one of 'em and frankly, don't want to spend my time looking for it.

2) See above.

3) No. I hunted in VA years ago with a Hawken, haven't hunted there since they allowed scopes. If I went back to hunt there, I doubt I'd put a scope on the rifle and I know I wouldn't use sabots, no need for either as most shots are 100 yards or less.

4) Can't honestly say if I would or not but I hope Colorado doesn't make scopes/sabots/smokeless legal. Because IMHO, it's not the in-line ignition but the additions like scopes/sabots/smokeless that extend the effective range of the weapon (for the average hunter) and defeat the purpose of the early "primitive" seasons. I do know this--it's no big deal to stalk within range of an elk or deer using either a caplock or un-scoped in-line. So I'd lean towards staying un-scoped.

Well, I apologize for putting words in your mouth; that was not my intention, but I did interpret your saying that "they screwed up when they allowed in-lines" to mean you'd be in favor of banning them now.

And I do appreciate any and all traditional shooters who don't advocate that.

Thank you. Apology accepted.

I really would like to hear more of your exploits while backpack hunting "back and beyond". I used to hunt like that, but a tricky ticker and a body bollixed up from arthritis put a stop to that. PM me if you wish.

Cheers! I'm gonna go and have a stiff drink!

MAN !! I leave for work and come home to a pissing contest going on without me LOL .
Ok so let me catch up .
Mine


what is that up front of me ?? DAM is that a glass canoe !!!!!





Ahhh no .

why would I pack such a thing on my back ? Not to mention all the food that would be needed to justify it



really that simple ? , ill just skip that becouse it would call for another book and its been a long day LOL



true


yes a no.

Yes that may seem to be the case on the surface.
But underneath I think is more . As soon as you define modern muzzle loading to restrictions . Before you can say adjourned. There is whispers of , needing scopes , then sabots , then any number of powders pellets , electronic ignitions �� then the next step is the BP cartradge shooters who also want a part of the pie . Then shortly after the modern center fire guys start questioning the whole setup



actualyyyyyyyyyy. there are restrictions on compounds . at least here . everything from max let offs to Brodhead designs
and sizes . even weights of those broad heads .

i used to hunted alot with compounds and they are alot different then a long bow or recurve of which im just trying to learn.

both my old Martin Lynx and super lynx shoots a 2114 at well ove 300fps
faster if i use carbons . but the long bow more to 175 . much bigger slower arrow .
on my martin i can hold its 80# setting for some time with its 70% let off . my 50lb long bow at full draw . less then 1/2 a minute and i might as well be shooting at the moon . no let off on that baby LOL


in all fairness i dont see anyone saying that . At least here the general season is open as is short range weapons hunts .
as i said before . even here you can use what you like in the general any weapons season .
and again speaking for myself . thats where i hunt if im not hunting with LOP tags .
Why , because that�s where the greatest opportunity is . Now if you into trophy hunting . Then some of the early season archery or late season muzzle loading hunts give some of the best trophy harvest numbers . But at least concerning the later . In order to get into those hunts . Your going to give up months of deer hunting for a 1 week hunt .


actualy that would be the fuse. then the matchlock then the snaphence and Wheel lock . followed by 150 years of the flintlock both side and inline and many many different improvements and percussion guns . then pin fire , rim fire and center fire which then were used as a base to converted back to many of the more modern inline muzzleloading rifles .
now thats not to say inline ignitions didn�t exist . they did . i think we covered that didn�t we .?

Ok so where are we now ? Has anything been settled ? Nope and it wont.
Why because the modern folks will never stop pushing for more and more technologies.
Traditionalist will continue to push for less and less technologies .
Modern muzzle loading folks will continue to be seen as nothing but interlopers by traditionalists.
Traditionalist will continue to be seen as people wanting to Bann someone from using what they want .

I cant count the times folks have ask me why I don�t get into these type of discussions very deep .
The reason is that neither side will ever understand the other .
Now this isn�t pointed at anyone really so don�t take it that way .
But I gotta rant alittle . Its just been one of those days . So don�t hold it against me .

But it chafs my back side to hear modern folks claim that there is no difference. Yet in the next sentence poo poo information that could help them because it comes from someone with decades of experience with traditional muzzle loading . Suddenly then these modern guns are somehow different .
This is normal;y followed by a long complaint about how corrosive BP is bla bla bla .
Modern powders are so much cleaners and easier to use .
Well maybe those of us who have been shooting it for decades could actually teach a think or two . But oh no that could just no be . After all we have to pay 20.00a lb for the new fangled powders and 24 a dozen for those fancy conical. Which still produce endless posts about rust , pitting fouling rings ,and how to remove brass and lead fouling from the barrels .

So how about you guys just agree that you disagree . Non of us have control of any of this . The laws will be what they are
But it would be nice for once to see the modern folks just understand that regardless of what you think , what you want , your never going to be welcome . But maybe just maybe if you put forth an effort to support those traditionalist who don�t want you around . Maybe in turn they would support areas where you could use every bang an whistle you guys want . After all , that�s what its all about isn�t it .
that�s how I see it anyway .

But anyway how about we step back , shake hands and talk about something else

Nice boat Cap. Build it yourself? PM me if you want to talk about it!

yes i did . i have built a number of them using the stitch and tape meathod . here are a couple others

I know what you mean. I'm 53 with one knee surgically repaired and the ankle on the other side arthritic so my days in the backcountry are numbered.

By the way, thanks for the gracious acceptance.

Here's a link to a post about my 2007 hunt, I'll see if I can dig up another:

http://www.kifaruforums.net/showthr...zleloader-Hunt/page5&highlight=westy

Here's another, from 2008:

http://www.kifaruforums.net/showthread.php?14620-2008-Muzzleloader-Hunt/page4&highlight=chestnut

Cap, welcome back to the pissin' match, we missed ya!!

But what do you mean, who's poo-pooing information from old-timers, I sure ain't.

And I did get rust in my barrel from BH209 so you won't hear me trash-talking about BP. As a matter of fact I don't believe you have heard that.