Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Further discussion of the 223 Ackley Improved

To begin, I am not sure I have a specific purpose for the round other than wanting one. I am torn between a 204 Ruger and the 223 A.I. The dilema is I am shooting left handed. I have a wonderfully accurate 223 but it's a Savage. Things are very rare in a lefty and I've always been partial to Remingtons. It's taken me several years and dollars to build a collection of lefty rifles, and I'd like to get a few more "upgrades".

Since moving to western Washington, I may never shoot another coyote again, but I have taken a few truckloads in my prior life. Even in the plains of southern New Mexico, I really only zapped a few over 300 yards. Most of the time as you lifted the rifle the yellow eyes and flapping tounge just get bigger and bigger, until he rolls at your feet. But I did hate all of the Jello that leaked out and ruined several pairs of boots. No, I didn't skin many, I just didn't want to leave carcasses everywhere. So I like fur friendly or at least less leaky.

Anywho, it seems as though Remington is going to offer a "New for 2004" which really means maybe by 2006, a left handed Remington CDL in a 223. I already have 2 700 in 22-250. I though maybe I'd snatch a small bolt face when I could find one, if I can.

I did follow the post below. I understand that you can skew any argument with stats, but the 204 sounds really amazing.

With a 204 of course I'd need to rebarrel and pay a smith, so I'd be out a few hundred. I am leaning toward a 223 AI mainly to run some type of 40 grain bullet and have a little bit of fun reloading. Can I maybe get teh factory barrel AI'd for under $200 and try and shoot it out before moving on ??

Can anyone chime in about any bugs incurred with the 223 AI and what real world velocities are ??? Can dies be obtained for less than $100 a set ?? What is IMI brass ?? Also, I've heard for an AI to be set up properly, you cannot shoot factory, "regular 223", in it to fireform without headaches.

I am going to focus on bobcats this fall. I've never shot one before and would like a good calling rifle that isn't going to blow apart my trophy. I may alreay own that rifle, but have some "sock drawer" money burning a hole in my pocket and love new stuff.

Hey Jesse,

I guess I'm qualified to answer a few of your questions.

First of all, if your gunsmith sets up the headspace correctly, standard .223 Remington ammunition will fire perfectly in a .223 Ackley chamber. Usually with surprisingly good accuracy.

Actual ballistics? My standard load in my three .223 Ackelys is a 40-grain Ballistic backed with 30.3 grains of H-335. I'm running a 21-inch barrel and two 22-inch barrels. Surprisingly, the 21-inch Schnieder barrel is the fastest and it clocks 3980 fps (@ 10 feet) with the load. My 22-inch Schnieder has many thousands of rounds through it (you'd think I was fibbing if I actually told you how many) and it gets about 3950 fps with the combo. The slowest barrel is a Pac-Nor and it clocks a flat 3900 fps.

With Winchester brass, the maximum load in my three rifles is 31.0 grains with the 40 Ballistic. This load goes well over 4,000 fps in the 21-inch tube and just under that (call it 3960 to 3980) in the other two barrels. I don't use the max load much because it could be wicked in Wyoming at 115 degrees in the shade (and no shade).

Dies: I'd suggest Redding and you can pretty much pick your poison. Sinclair International (phone # 1-800-717-8211) has dies for the .223 Ackley Improved 40�. The Redding Deluxe die set, with a full-length sizer, neck sizing die and a seating die is listed at $98.70. Or you can buy a full-length die set (FLS and seater) for $61.70. Or you can buy the neck die set, with a neck sizer and a seater, for $61.70.

Personally, I like the Type-S neck-sizer and a standard Redding seating die. I have a body die (kind of a full-length sizer with no expander or decapper), but I've never used it. When cases get tight, I find that ironing out the base with a .38/.357 carbide sizer does the trick.

If you wanted a set like mine, the Redding Type-S neck sizer costs $50.25, the TiN .245" bushing is $17.25 (hardened steel - 73 series cost $9.75) , tungsten-carbide expander plug costs $17.85 and the seating die is $39.30. Sinclair may have a Type-S die set made up and it may save you some money, but the cost of the pieces is about $125.00 for this accuracy-oriented rig.

A question that you didn't ask: Is the .223 Ackley worth it? Let's put it this way; barrels last as long as the standard .223 (friggin' forever) and you'll never lust for a .22-250. Yeah, it's worth it.

Gun writers get issued basically unlimited supplies of .223 Remington ammo at the prairie dog hunts, so I use this for "morning ammo." And when the wind comes up in the afternoon, I shift to Ackley handloads. Yeah, Hell of a difference.

I used to use 40 Ballistics for prairie dogs and 50 Ballistics for coyotes/bobcats. Then, one day I got my ammo mixed up and whacked a half dozen Texas coyotes with 40s. They were bang/flop kills. Since that time, I've just shot 40 Ballistics for everything. I've killed literally hundreds of coyotes and many bobcats with the 40s. Man, they don't even twitch.....down and dead every time.

I have never (like NEVER) had a coyote or bobcat move a foot after receiving a 40 Ballistic in the .223 Ackley. Obviously, in hunting, sometimes positions are wrong and bullet placement is not quite right. Doesn't seem to make a difference. They just die.

Good luck in your quest. Be sure to let us know how you proceed in you journey.

Steve

Zapper-

Thank you for the lengthy reply. I kinda threw it out there as bait for you specifically. I fully intend to look up some of your previous articles in VHA. Did you pen any on the 223 AI specifically, as I recall one of your stories with the blue gun in it several times. I also recall a "scientific" study put out in VHA, around the same time as your article I am thinking of, from two guys who shot both 40 and 50 BT's or V-max I think, for an entire season. They had some formula for instant kills, 10 yard walk offs, and gotaways or something like that. I believe the final moral of the story was the 40 BT's or V-max were quicker stops than the 50 by some margin. I guess it's off to the garage to dig for magazines.

I really didn't think the AI would give actual fps speed like you are showing, ecspecially with such short tubes.

I will probably try a factory CDL if/when they ever hit the shelves. If the factory barrel is at least mediocre, than it will get AI's and maybe get the receiver trued and barrel shortened and crowned.

Anyone recommend a smith who can AI a barrel in under a year ????

Jesse,

Bait? Yup, and I rose to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I have a whole article devoted to the .223 Ackley and a bunch of ones where I was just messing around killing critters that dreadfully needed it.

The article you want is in Varmint Hunter Magazine Issue #21 January 1997. The piece is fairly lengthy (prolly 6,000 words) and, like all my stuff, is straight from the shoulder. It's about the Pac-Nor barrel (great shooter).

Gunsmith? There are a lot of fine ones out there, but my favorite is Gordy Gritters, 1648 Cordova Avenue, Pella, Iowa 50219....Telephone: (641) 628-3044.

Gordy's work is PERFECT. He also loves gunsmithing and isn't out screwing around doing other stuff when you simply want your riflework done (not mentioning any names <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

No doubt about it, the .223 Ackley is a fast little stinker. I was a "shooting gun writer" and every muzzle velocity, load and group size I ever published was the real deal.

No doubt about it, the 40 Ballistics simply tip coyotes over, like furry silhouette targets. Dead-dead.

And it's amazing how many folks will not believe that it is a good killer. I suppose these that to some people it just doesn't seem reasonable that a 40-grain can kill as well as 50s (or heavier), especially on predators. Even my editor at VH, who has by this time killed maybe ten or twelve coyotes, is totally convinced that 40s will simply wound a song-dog. In my old age, I find that it is simply best to listen, smile and walk away (some folks KNOW and some folks don't....and I ain't never going to change that).

My advice is simply to try the 40s. I'll guarantee you'll stick with them.

Steve

JJ,
I followed Steve's advice in building my first 223AI, and was glad I did. You can pretty much take what he says to the bank.

If forced to choose between my 204 and my 223AI, my 204 would be down the road faster than it took to type this. fortunately that scenario is a LONG ways from happening.

The 223AI is a fantastic round, you won't be disappointed.

BTW, Grafs has Winchester Mil-Spec Primed brass on closeout now that would make superb 223AI fodder. Cases last a long time in the AI, but with Milspec you might not be able to wear them out given judicious loading practices.

Now, to depart from Steve's advice a little, I subbed Ramshot TAC for H335 and found nearly identical velocity and accuracy with a much cleaner burning, more stable powder. It doesn't do any of the wierd things that I've had H335 do when it gets hot out.

AA-2230, BL-C(2) and H-4895 are also super. Very non-judgmental cartridge.

You guys wouldn't believe the calls I get when a fella is just starting to fireform .223 Remington cases (or factory ammo) in his new .223 Ackley rifle. "Holy Crap, Steve, my standard .223 Remington fireform loads shoot half-inch. NO WAY will the rifle shoot this well as an Ackley."

It has been my experience that the .223 Ackley commonly shoots superbly with fireform loads. This makes it very practical to fireform and shoot prairie dogs at the same time. It makes perfect ecological sense; you can puff a case and stop a heart, all with a single squeeze of the trigger.

Anyway, Jesse, if you decide on the .223 Ackley, you will not be disappointed.

Steve

You guys and your .223 Ackley talk. I have the itch for something in an ackley version and have been mulling over witch cartridge for awile now. I almost called pac-nor today to have my .243 rebarrled to the .243AI but didn't. Now after reading this thread I think that my favorite rifle, a winchester m70 featherweight .223, that I've had since highschool and shot everything from praire dogs to cows with, will need the treatment. This has been my "luckiest" calling rifle in terms of number of 'yotes shot but they sometimes get back up again. I love the feel and familiarity of this rifle despite my hatred of "classic" style stocks but would like more knock down power. Twenty two - two fifty power and cheap ammo to use on praire dogs while fire forming sounds to me like having your cake and eating it to.

Pronghorn,

The .223 Ackley is a sickness and there is NO cure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Again, thanks for the prompt and articulate reply. It's odd in this highly public world of hunting. When your whole life revolves around hunting and hunting shows, camo clothes, rifles, rifles, rifles, Cabelas, and more hunting TV. I guess you's guys are the equivalent of movie stars to many. Having you and MD chime in personally is like getting a fan letter replied to by Tom Cruise. If I ever met Craig Boddington, I guess it would be like meeting Brad Pitt or something. Gordy Gritters would be like using the Personal Trainer for the Stars.

In all honesty, I have not talked to Gordy, but can only imagine he has better things to do than piss around with some nobody's factory barrel and AI it as well as true a receiver. Even if he did accept the project, it would probably sit leaning in the corner for a year or two. I've called your other gunsmith in your state and was kinda blown off. I am sure all of the work is top notch. IN another Hollywood analogy, I doubt I could get Jesse James to build Jesse Jaymes a chopper with a phone call.

Guess I am trying to feel out the next "up and comers" in the game, and get them while they are turning stuff out in under a year.

Hell, Remington still hasn't made the rifle yet. I was out looking for powders today and did buy some 40 V-max's for a standard 223 to temporarily scratch an itch.

I didn't think the Wincester 223 brass was that good, seeing as I throw away 400-1000 peices of it a week. I guess I need to be bringing some of it home.

"I didn't think the Wincester 223 brass was that good, seeing as I throw away 400-1000 peices of it a week. I guess I need to be bringing some of it home. "

Aaaaaaahh! Throw it at ME! Aaaaah!

Too bad you don't have a Savage. You could order a new barrel from Sharp Shooter and keep shooting your old one 'til the new one showed up, usually four to six weeks. Then, it's only about 10 minutes to swap.

Ugly is as pretty does.

You should be all right if you time your gunsmith need. Wanting a varmint rifle done in the spring is kind of iffy. Wanting a big bore in September is the same. So plan a little...say just after Christmas when it's too soggy to do anything but sulk, and I'm sure Gordy or the "other gunsmith" will be happy to fit you in at a decent price.
I do know that Gordy was advertising in Shotgun News for a spell earlier this year, which is a hint at when the slow time is for a gunsmith.

And yep, I'll probably go ahead and get me an Improved when I smoke the barrel I just got.

Friend Dave,

You know Gordy probably as well as I do. Very, very nice guy who would ALWAYS do exactly whatever the shooter wants. He is like I was in my thirty+ years of business; no job too small and the customer is my friend.

Steve

Jesse - give Mitch Vancura a call. His number's listed in the Poulsbo, Washington phone book under Vancura's Gun Works. Don't think you'll be disappointed. Knowledgeable with timely work. What more could you ask? Ward

COOL. Great tip and much closer to home for Jesse. Thanks Ward.

Steve

Jesse, like you I am a left handed rifle shooter and I too have been looking for a CDL in the .223/.222 bolt face. Never have owned a .223 AI but I do have a left hand 700 in a 22-250. Seems to me the 22-250 will do anything and everything the AI would do based on what I read on this and other boards. A friend is now shooting a .204 and it seems rather interesting. Truth is when I find a CDL .223 in 2006 as you say, I'm thinking about a .17 Remington or the regular old .222. I know the .223 will do anything the .222 will do but I've owned a right handed 700 .222 since 1968. It was the first gun I bought after the GCA 68 came out. I've waited so long for Remington to make the small bolt face so I could have left handed .222 I almost bet that is what I'll do. Course it will be a custom barrel. Since you said most of your coyote shots were up close (same thing here) a .204 or .17 Remington might be fun.
Regards,
W

Jesse, I'll chime in with my limited but very happy experience with this round. Unlike some on this board I love my Savage rifles and, for varmint work, shoot them by choice. I have (2) 223 AI's and both are on Savage actions. The first one is a solid bottom single shot 110. I shoots 40gr V-Max bullets at 3900fps into little 3 shot touching clusters. I could not be happier. It is wearing a Lilja SS barrel and has a Timney trigger. If your rifle is pre Accu-Trigger then I recomend the Timney....I have tried some others and the Timney is crisp and easier to get adjusted correctly. I know I have already stated I love my Savage rifles and with this next thought I hope you dont write me off as a cheap skate....when I decided to try the 223 AI it was because of all the great praise it receives on this board but I was not sure I was going to like it...so I bought LEE 223 Imp dies and they work fine...for about $24.(with shellholder) There I said it.....my name is Mark Hopper and shoot Savage Rifles and I own LEE dies. Anyway... the dies are working just fine. The rifle shoots GREAT and I liked it so much that I bought a new Stevens/Savage in 223 and immedately yanked the barrel, faced it off and re-cut the chamber for 223 AI and recrowned......that was last week...still haven't shot it yet. But I did kill 5 groundhogs in Ohio last night with the other 223 AI.

I am shooting 29.5gr of BENCHMARK,BR4 and 40gr V-MAX. It shot so well I stopped at that load. Like you, with my job I have access to ALOT of empty brass. We just switched to Winchester from Hornady TAP. All my brass so far is Hornady/Frontier. Free is good...and it seems to be working.

My advise is don't discount your Savage because of some opinions. It is a VERY easy rifle to work on, accessorise, and accurize. With the ease of barrel switching on Savage rifles you could have a 223 AI and a 204 Ruger and whatever else you want without alot of hassle and then you could shoot what you felt like shooting at that moment.....Just a thought.

Mark H

Moron me, Jesse, I didn't realize you had a Savage but were just griping it. Don't be ashamed about impeccable engineering taste. (Except that rear pillar/sear thing, and EVERYONE sells lawyer triggers these days that stink.)
I got a 223 barrel from Sharp, four week turnaround, I got the short throat and tiny chamber I wanted in a 1-8. I wasn't sure about the twist, but it worked out outrageous.
I didn't get an Ack because I have a BR.
I have two one-holer loads already, one for gophers using the Sierra 40 HP (cheap is good) and one with VM55s, the latter was the best load in my old barrel, too. And I haven't done anything resembling real load development. I am just in shock at what a death ray I have now...and the original barrel was no slouch, either.
So I would recommend you order a pipe from Sharp Shooter. End of story. If you wind up hating Improveds, you can always unscrew the thing.

I can also vouch for Sharp Shooter. I have not used any of their barrels but I have used their Savage recoil lug and purchased several misc parts from them. They are very easy to deal with and have giving me good service.

Mark H

Guys,

Was working with a friend and his .223AI this past weekend. We were forming AI brass with loads in standard .223 cases, and shooting at 50 yards. 24 of H322 and a Speer 50 TNT did a half inch and less. Velocity averaged a tad over 3300. The cases formed just fine.

My buddy has a pound of 2230 that we'll start playing with. Accuracy with the H322 was so encouraging that we'll burn the rest of the can (old lot) forming brass.

Mainframe

Call me skeptical at best, crazy at worst, but I can't warm up to this whole 223AI thing. I build my own rifles and a few for friends(a shooter/machinist who is a partner in a machine shop can be a dangerous thing). Anyway, I have built only two 223AI's at present, both on 700's, one was setup by the owner, I just chambered and installed the barrel. He says it feeds fine and shoots great,10 shots under an inch while fireforming brass with Win factory 45 grainers, the 40 round boxes from WalMart. The other one wouldn't feed. I made it feed but it took a lot of polishing and trial and error (mostly error). I have all the components to build another one for a friend on a stainless 700. I told him I would chamber and install the barrel but when it comes to feeding, he's on his own.
I have at present another stainless short 700 223 action, my own, a VLS stock and a new stainless Bevan King barrel in Rem Varmint contour with a 14" twist at 27"...... I can't get excited about the 223AI...but I have the reamer, and I have borrowed a 222 Rem Mag reamer and I have the dies. I just might build the 222 Rem Mag over the 223AI...seems to me it holds the same amount of powder as the 223AI and I know it will feed like it has eyes and I won't have to fireform. I have a couple 22-250's and two Hornets, I like 22 cal varmint rifles but this 223AI thing has me baffled. What the he!! is so great about it?....enlighten me

Just one thing. What about brass and quality of it for .222 Mag?
Glenn