Home Forums Gear Hunting Trucks and Four-Wheel Drives Liking the new Jeep Wranglers.

I'm using a 4 cly., 2000 Wrangler for my off road vehicle presently. It's been a pretty good rig, but it could use some improvements. Looks like most of them are availiable on the 2011's.
Like the wider stance. About like a pickup. Better for those icy, snow covered roads that the boys in their trucks have cut ruts into.
Like the repositioned fuel tank. Never did like the idea of it under the body and next to the rear bumper. That's asking a rock to put a hole in it. Currently, it's up inside the frame rails and has a skid plate around it.
They still use the solid front end. Can't remember the last time I had to have mine realgined. Very tough.
Comes with the V6 only now and a heavier rear axle. Good, or even better. the old 6 cly w/o the heavier axle was troublesome.
Roll up window doors that are still removable standard. Can purchase a special setup for the side mirrors if you like to run around w/o the doors. I will appreciate that.
Interesting looking, easier to handle three piece hardtop. Removable of course. All or in part.
Limited Slip Differential for the rear axle. About time.
Factory designed, dealer installed 3 inch lift kit for even sharper angle of attack and departure.
Bigger tires. Lots of good things to like. E

I honestly don't see any improvments in the "JK" over the "TJ"? the 4.0ltr straight six is a MUCH better engine then that crap bag V6 out of the Caravan!, my '97 TJ came factory equipt with the Dana 44 rear axle with the TracLoc limmited slip diff, my skid pan under the fuel tank has all kinds of rock rash on it! no holes yet?, I did align it last fall after I rebuilt the front axle and replaced all the contol arm bushings, crappy factory parts were only good for 150K miles?
The "Rubicon" TJ's had all the stuff the aftermarket was building for the Jeep's in it right from the factory, Dana 44's front and rear with selectable lockers, 4.10 gears, lift, 4:1 low range transfer case, slip yolk eliminator rear driveline, a 6 spd manual transmission for those of us that aren't pussys and know how to operate a stick, and the 4.0 straight six!
Jeep had a good thing going and Daimler screwed it up!

The six wasn't any better off road than the 4. That's because it's torque curve was too high. The Rubicon version addressed that with their 4:1 transfer case. They also build the thing with heavy duty axles as standard.
Those axles were an option for many years. But none of my local dealers would stock them. Had to be special ordered.
Same thing with the limited slip differential.
But, all in all, they have a very loyal following. Nothing else does as well of the Ribicon Trail, for instance. Down in the desert areas, where small size and angle of attack and departure are really needed, they rule. E

OH my!!! there is no comparison between the two, the 4 cylinder sucks hardly any torque at all compared to the six. I know I have both.

IMO jeep quit making jeeps in 06, the new JK as you stated have the stance of a full size pickup. That alone takes the concept of being a jeep right out of it.

But for want you are using it for it would be a great rig, you might even look at the four door JK.

No four door for me.
Properly geared, a six would blow the doors off of a four off road. But such animals were custom built or custom ordered. Here, in sunny Kalifornia, the four bangers were for regular, not hard core, off roaders, and the sixes were for those who like to go fast like a sports car. Which, of course, Jeeps are not. Still, the Jeep engineers did a surprisingly good job of building a tough front end and a vehicle that will handle very well on a winding road. E

What I will never understand is why jeep built a LP-30 for the TJ when they already had the HP-30 for the cherokee I put HP-30s in both of my none Rubicon models

Can't believe the dealers didn't order up the jeeps with the 44's CA. has some of the best four wheeling there is to be had.

Yes it was, he's not talking about the V6 he's talking about the I-6. And yes, I've drove/had both.

The in line sixes had a pretty low power curve just like the four bangers.

Problem with all six cylinders in Jeeps is they geared them too high.

Bill

My Sahara came stock with 30" tires and 3:73 gears with a 3spd auto which was prefect. now running 35s with 4:56s my Rubicon of course had 31s and 4:10s again prefect.

I agree alot of them came with 3:07 gears for some crazy reason.

Yes, the Rubicons come standard with HD front and rear axles, 4:10 diff ratios and a 4:1 transfer case ratio. That makes for a very capable rig. It also runs the fuel mileage down. Which I'm sure is why most of the dealer Jeeps had such poorly matched running gear.
Anyway, I'm glad to see that they make most of the better combinations for an off road vehicle availiable.
The other thing I've noticed is that while still maintaining their great off road capabilities, they have also become alot easier riding. At the end of a long day, that makes a big difference to us older users. E

The new Jeep Wranglers aren't all that. I just sold my 2010 that I had for about 18 months.

Even three years after they were introduced,the Freedom tops leak. The rain gutters on the Freedom top don't work either. The second you open the door,a stream of water either runs down your pants or onto the floor.

The V6 is gutless.It makes 205HP at 5000+ RPM. There are issues with the clutches and throw out bearings on the manuals. The autos are prone to overheat.

Expect ball joint replacement at less than 25,000 miles.

A plastic clip attaches the shift linkage to the transfer case. The clip will break about the 3rd time you put it in 4wd.

The parking brake doesn't work worth a shiat unless you yard the lever all the way back. Expect the cable to snap about the 4th time you apply the parking brake.

The gas tank will spit fuel back at you if you fill the tank at anything more than a trickle.

The doors will rattle and clunk unless you wrap the strikers with electrical tape.

If you're lucky,you won't get a case of Death Wobble that'll send you into the ditch at 60mph.

Other than that,they're fantastic.

I'm constantly amazed at the amount of people that will overlook the absolute crap build quality on the Wranglers. They'll defend their Jeeps like they were defending their kids.

I guess it really is a "Jeep thing".

i read reports on Corvettes and how chitty they often are when compared to other cars in the same price range as far as build quality but often when surveys are done they rate very high in customer satisfaction with the product.......figure when it comes to vehicles, some chit just aint supposed to make sense on paper

Sounds like about every other Mopar product I've been around.

I'm on my second Wrangler. Since I live near the famous Rubicon Trail, I know lots of people who own and run them there. Many others use theirs for various chores both on and off road.
Funny none of them have gripped to me about any of that stuff. I can assure you mine hasn't had those problems. I've only had it since 2001. It sees lots of off road use every year. My hunting trips, for instance, often run one to two months.
Nothing has reguired rebuilding except the raditor. I just replaced the original battery. And that's it. Now, I have eaten up some tires on mean ground, even a couple of six ply truck tires. But that's hardly the Jeep's fault.
I also asked a friend who owns a local service center how the Jeeps were holding up these days. He said he hadn't had one in for repair for quite a while. The dealers these days usually give the new owners free oil changes etc. with the purchase of a Jeep, so any problems might be handled by them now. But it also tended to indicate very few problems with the new Jeeps. That and the fact that the nearest dealer is about 25 miles away, which is hardly convenient and certainly more expensive. E

Those Wranglers are nice vehicles and are generally good off road. If you are serious about any kind of off roading, however, I would consider swaping out the factory limited slip for a locker. For most light duty work, a limited slip works ok, however if you're in uneven terrain and approaching steep rock spewed steep hills, the factory type limited slips don't have sufficient transfer of power to the wheel that has sufficient traction to get you out of trouble. Me personally, I'd go with a locker in the rear and a good gear drivem LS up front. I had a Nissan Xterra w/ v6, and while I liked the little SUV for it's decent power, tight turning radius it was hampered by it's limited slip diff. Just offering some thoughts, if you don't mind.

Roy

+1 on the Locker RD!!

You go do some reading on a forum dedicated to JK Wranglers ('07-current) and then come back and tell me the issues I mentioned don't plague the new Wranglers.

thats why i drive a CJ.....just gotta fight with the electrical gremlins due to 35 year old wiring and a retarded previous owner.....just gotta beat or tape them into submission

"The new Jeep Wranglers aren't all that. I just sold my 2010 that I had for about 18 months.

Even three years after they were introduced,the Freedom tops leak. The rain gutters on the Freedom top don't work either. The second you open the door,a stream of water either runs down your pants or onto the floor. Mine has 55k miles (my daily driver by the way), no leaking to date. I even leave it a bit loose so the wife can unscrew the bolts, and have had zero problems. You are right about the rain gutters. Kind of silly, I agree.

The V6 is gutless.It makes 205HP at 5000+ RPM. There are issues with the clutches and throw out bearings on the manuals. The autos are prone to overheat. This is my biggest complaint about the JK, and my only really problem with it. I agree with what others have said, that they should have never left the 4.0 to go to this engine. Just took me some getting use too.

I have an automatic, and they are more prone to overheat (transmission) if you are pulling something (camper, etc) and do not have the gear ratio for it. For next to nothing a transmission cooler can be added, as well as a gauge to measure this. I pull a popup with mine, and havent had any problems. Havent heard that about the manuals...

Expect ball joint replacement at less than 25,000 miles. Again, 55k and no problems here.

A plastic clip attaches the shift linkage to the transfer case. The clip will break about the 3rd time you put it in 4wd. During some of our winter storms here, I leave it in 4wd all the time, or have least taken it in and out multiple times, and have had zero problems.

The parking brake doesn't work worth a shiat unless you yard the lever all the way back. Expect the cable to snap about the 4th time you apply the parking brake. Maybe it is because I have an auto, but havent had to use the parking brake, and someone else can chime in that uses it wheelin'

The gas tank will spit fuel back at you if you fill the tank at anything more than a trickle. Yes, mine did this. Took it back in, had it back in a day, and doesnt do it anymore. I actually recieved a letter from jeep, that they will fix this at no cost for the life of the vehicle.

The doors will rattle and clunk unless you wrap the strikers with electrical tape. My YJ did this like crazy, both front doors, and the tailgate, and it only had 95k miles on it. My JK locks up tight, and have had zero issues, and dont see it happening any time soon. I have to shut mine actually harder than I would like...

If you're lucky,you won't get a case of Death Wobble that'll send you into the ditch at 60mph.

Other than that,they're fantastic. Mine had the death wobble occur because I tried to push my shocks and tires above the recommended amount of time. 95% of the time death wobble occurs when people put on lifts and bigger tires. I know, because when my stock JK did this, I had a really hard time finding out why on a stock jeep, because all of the other instances were those that put on bigger tires and a lift.

I'm constantly amazed at the amount of people that will overlook the absolute crap build quality on the Wranglers. They'll defend their Jeeps like they were defending their kids. Are they overpriced? I suppose many think so. I took into consideration the amount of aftermarket parts you can purchase to customize it the way you want it. I also like the fact that I can crawl under it, open the hood, and do everything myself, in a fraction of the amount of time others take to do the same thing. I have loved my other Jeeps, but always wanted more room, and the 4 door allows me to have fun with the family now. That is just my preference.

I guess it really is a "Jeep thing". You hit it on the head. I like my JK, and my wife likes her Commander. In our family, it is a "jeep" thing, but they also are solid vehicles that if they do require some work, I can do it myself, with parts that I can get anywhere.

Yeah, I might have an obsession....

1979 Jeep CJ (under construcion)
1992 Jeep YJ(sold about a year ago)
2007 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
2008 Jeep Commander

It was nice taking off the freedom panels (takes about 2 minutes), and cruising through the mountains in CO (for this IA family...) Family enjoyed it too....


joe

Again, I live in real Jeep country. I've rubbed elbows and hung out with more hard core Jeepers over the years that I can remember.
Ball joints wearing out ? At over 50,000 miles, still working fine. In fact, the last three years, and that's once a year, I have the alginment checked. It's always been right on. Heck, even my 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins 2500 isn't that good.
Emergency brake giving me fits ? I've used mine daily since 2001. Just when will this happen ?
I suspect you had a problem with the top and sold it rather than get the dealer to fix it under warranty. I also suspect you hung out at a website and added together all the grips of the various owners and then insisted that's what they all do.
As to the engine power compliants, it's all a matter of understanding what you want and what to buy. Especially if you want big tires on the thing, go with the higher optional diff ratios. The Rubicons, for instance, use both a 4:10 rear and a 4:1 transfer case ratio. E

Good point RD. Had one custom installed on my old 66 Dodge, 2WD. Really helped out in those remote desert areas. Allowed me to cross a sand flat or drive a wash as long as I didn't turn much. I see Toyota offers them as options on some of their trucks.
While I'm impressed with the new Jeeps, I haven't ruled out a Toy Tacoma. Solid rep for holding up well and out lasting everything. E

Are you really this dense?

You keep comparing your 2001 TJ to the JK Wranglers. They aren't the same Jeep. Its obvious yours has been trouble free,but thats hardly the case with the JKs. I've told you to look for yourself,but you'd rather sit and argue with a guy thats OWNED one and has experienced more than one of the issues I posted.

I'll say it again,and maybe this time you'll get it. Spend some time researching at a dedicated JK forum and then come tell me they aren't plagued by the issues I've stated.

Ive got a 2010 rubicon unlimited that i have had for a year. 14k miles. No problems. Ive used both tops. Manual tranny in and out of 4wd six or eight times most weekends.

Thus far my only complaint is the engine. Wish theyd put a hemi in them or at least would have left the old hi output 4.0. My '91 cherokee i had for 10 years with that engine used to haul ass. Now Going to and from the hunt club feels like i am driving a sewing machine. Once i am there, no complaints.

I have done some light towing with it and it didnt feel any slower with a trailer and 4 20 foot 2 man ladders behind it, but those were really light loads

There is a easy to do Hemi kit for them. Word is that they are going to a reprogrammed 3.6 ,Grand Cherokee etc.,for 2012.

Dense ? What part of "I know several who have them" don't you get ? I know these people personally. I see the Jeeps in action in the mountains and the deserts. What part of that don't you get ?
I can go to any forum on the Internet and hear all sorts of bad things about almost anything. What I've learned to do is to find out where it comes from. Who are the sources ? Of those having problems, how many aren't having problems ?
What makes me suspicious about your compliants is the fact that you seem to be the only guy with all of those problems. Or is it that you've added up the problems of a few and ignored the good service enjoyed by many ? E

Look at the Toyota FJ Cruiser. The Wrangler is a distant second place.

+ 1,000,000 Lower priced to boot and Toyota Quality. You could not give me a Jeep anything

I'm going to wait for the '13 models. Autoweek says they'll be Fiats, and nothing says quality like Fiat.

I will consider them. Haven't even thought of them, but am considering a Toy Taco, so I'll look them over too. E

I just looked at them. You're kidding right ? All they would allow me to compare them to are the four door Saharas. They were OK, but not quite as good.
However, if you compare them to the 2 dr. Rubicons, they blow them away. I'll bet money the FJ's wouldn't get half way through the Rubicon Trail, for instance. The Rubicons do it w/o breking into a sweat. Far better angle of attack and departure. Removable tops as well as doors. You can even fold the windshield down. 4:1 transfer case ratio. Both front and rear locking differentials. Solid front axles. Mine haven't needed realgining in the past three years. You can electronically disconnect the front stabilizer for more flexibility when crawling over rocks, etc.
Frankly, if I buy a Toy, I'll do a Tacoma. E

For that size/class vehicle the FJ Cruiser beats the Jeep easily.

With the Jeep you have to move up to the Rubicon to equal the o/r capabilities of the FJ.

The FJ is quieter on and off road combined with the ride being smoother. Neither have an overabundance of extra space, but fold the back seats down and the FJ opens up considerably more.

Dependability? FJ hands down.

Bought a 2007 used with 36,000. They replaced the rear brakes. Now at 61,000 and still rides and handles like new. The inside looks almost new when cleaned up and I don't baby them all that much. Have switched fluid to synthetic. Other than oil changes that covers extras in 61,000 mi of use.

Wish I could say the same for the Jeep, but it is what it is.

Addition: Rear locker on the FJ will take you any place the Rubicon will go. Unless you are looking for a hard core rock crawler. Which I doubt you are.

Ever try driving in and out of desert washes ? I've done alot of it. That's where angle of attack and departure really means something.
Ever look for tracks in the sand with the doors off of your 4WD ? Works alot better. Take the top off and you'll see alot more too.
Ever run out of power pulling a grade ? You'll need more engine or more gears. BTDT.
All 4WD's are compromises. Knowing what you can use or need is the secret of making the best selection. E

E. If it makes any difference the FJ has ran the Rubicon in stock form many times since its beginning in 2007. Its pure 4 wheel capabilities have been proven more than once, by those who have BTDT.

I prefer to have a solid one piece steel roof over my head for a variety of reasons, beyond the quietness factor which enters into 99% of my use. Doors that come off interest me even less for the same reason. Engine power and gearing. Drop the FJ into 4low and gear it down to 1st. You will crawl with the best of them.

Pick whatever you want. But the Wrangler can't do anything the FJ can't and the FJ will do it quieter and smoother.

Hhmmm Which is it, it equals the Rubi or not?

Addition of a locker to any of the jeep wranglers and you walk away from that FJ.

Have you BTDT? I have! they do have lots of places for said stock FJs to by pass the rough stuff on the Rubicon trail. Maybe that's what you mean by running the trail.

I will be going down to the Rubicon trail in September you are more than welcome to join us I would really like to see how your FJ works out.

JoeCool

No you will not see me there, but I think it would be a great thing to see and do.

However, look it up and you will see that the FJ has handled the trail as well as any Jeep.

Here is a little teaser. The Rubicon part is down past the Utah pics.

I doubt if E. will need anymore o/r capabilities than an FJ will give him. Along with more quiet, comfort, room and reliability.

I understand the "It's a Jeep thing" motto. I just don't believe in it all that much.

http://www.4wdtoyotaowner.com/FJCruiser.html

Just amazing where those guys and girls are taking those vehicles. With a roof along with doors that are permanently attached. Have to love E's humor.

Yep just as I thought You haven't BTDT

I don't see much flex in those FJ rigs as well. and the pics on the Rubicon are not on hard parts of the trail very lame to say the least.

I understand you not buying into it, as you don't have a clue about it. I mean really! don't live your life though other people experiences and pics. Do the BTDT and get back to me, until than your just window licking.

Most places I have wheeled the FJ's and Hummer's sit back and watch. They don't seem to have much faith in there rigs.

Must be the same everwhere...

Here are some BTDT pics.


Shot at 2010-01-13


Shot at 2009-09-10


Shot at 2009-09-10


Shot at 2008-09-29


Shot at 2008-09-26


Shot at 2008-09-29

[img]http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1563/img0149dv1.jpg[/img]
Shot at 2008-09-26

Never said I was the expert or BTDT when it comes to hardcore 4 wheeling, and iff you can show me where I said I ran the rubicon, I would like to see it. And yes there are somethings I admit I learn or am interested in from the experiences of others.

I can read your writings, so I'm guessing you are presently upside down. I could give a [bleep] either way.

Well from this I thought you was talking from experience...Guess not! I mean really, you were telling us all about your FJ and how great it was only to let us down.

Guessing isn't your forte. Keep your eyes on the path and use a spotter.

Stock Jeep?

You got it window licker

close lots of armor. All those FJ's but one looked about as stock my jeep

Really I think it is fun stuff you go out and do,and I find it interesting. If that is window licking when it comes to O/R, I'm guilty. No big deal, because I don't give a [bleep] what you think.

Stay upright.

Don't get all mad, you was just giving bad advice to E that you had no experance at.

If I was mad, I would ignore you. However, admittedly many here confuse a little back and forth with being PO'd.

But unless E is hardcore off roading, I'll stick with my advice. Hell I'll stick with even if he is. Wouldn't want him stuck out there in the desert.

Hell if I wasn't going to wheel it hard I would probaly get the FJ as well, the V-8 FJ hauls ass.

I get to drive them off the ships out into the holding yard.

I thought it would be the best pure hunting vehicle in that size class for E in that I've had experience with both.

The Rubicon was originally brought up by E. in his statement that the FJ couldn't make it. I was just letting him know that it had done the deed.

Again stay upright and have fun.

Would really like to see his idea of "hard core" off roading myself too. Would like to see how any of the vehicles mentioned so far would stack against a 700 Grizzly or 750 King Quad. At least you don't get 10,000 dollar repair bills either way.

Funny you brought that up as I seen some quads on the Rubicon last time I was down there. They was having a hell of a time getting around in the rocks, look like more work than fun.

I have a 400 rancher and a friend of mine has a couple of those 750 king Quads I will take my jeep over the quads 99% of the time.

Just for the record, I haven't ruled out the Toy FJ's or the Toy Taco. For instance, if I can get a Taco with an aftermarket flatbed, that might do. I'll drive and fool with all of them before I make a deal.
But at this point, since I can get a Rubicon with just what I like, it is in first place.
I'd also point out that it is not my primary truck or vehicle. I've got a nice 06 Dodge for that. This will be a hunting and secondary vehicle. The kind that you trail to and from the hunting area. So that if it gets broken, I can still get home.
I've got 40 yrs. now as a 4WD owner. Should know what to look for and what works for me by now.
No ATV's for me. Yes, they can get around very well. But they lack lots of things I like. Staying out of the wind and rain is one. Being drivable on the highway is another. Being able to carry others is another. Not for me. E

You're probably right as they're best used by younger/stronger guys who can muscle them when needed. Some of the newer ones have power steering which helps.

Eremicus, I don't know if you are open to another suggestion, but I would also consider a Nissan Xterra "Off Road" version as they can be had for less than the Toy's and are very solid vehicles now that they have the 3.5L V6 and a factory locker in the rear. Lots of skid plates, good ground clearance, good factory tires and probably more interior room than the FJ. The FJ is nice, but because of it's weight, they are a little underpowered and not so swift on gas. Just a suggestion. The 3.5L motor has been available for a few years now and finding a solid used one shouldn't be a problem. They also have a good tight turning radius.

im 76 years old. and it is a jeep thing. it says america. whats wrong with that? i only wish it was all america. i can remember the pictures of those ww2 jeeps and what they meant to me as a little kid. i hope a part of me will always be a kid and crave a jeep. screw them jap vehicles even if they are better.
i had a 79 cj7 for quite a few years. i replaced the origanal 235 engine and put in a t18 4 speed at the same time. unfortunatly i didnt install at least a rear locker. i had very good bfg mud tires on it but they didnt help on ice.
a very small ammount of ice caused the thing to lose traction and slide backward over the edge of a very steep pa. mountain.
it rolled end over end several times and crushed a very old friend. so for gods sake lock up any vehicle used off road. my current jeep is an 06 rubicon unlimited. it is far and away superior to my old one in every way. especially the heater/defrosters. it has a fabtech front bumper and 9000 lb warn winch which ive needed.
it also has a full roof rack and guards on all lights. i might add it has a/c and an auto transmission. anybody who dosent think they are better even offroad has never tried one or is letting youthfull tetesterone take over their thought process. im just now starting to warm up a little to the latest version jeeps. but then ive warmed up about the japs also.

My son's girlfriend left her 2007 FJ Cruiser at our house this week. They both go to TAMU and took his car back. I think they left her car so I would start fidgeting and service it. They were right.

I looked the FJ over a lot closer than normal due to this thread. Can't give you firsthand off road feedback, but I will say a few things that I noticed.

First, the FJ is far beefier than I thought. I actually thought it was a unibody and was surprised at the comments that it was so rugged off road. Lo and behold it is a fully boxed framed vehicle. It looks extremely well built from below. I do have some experience in this. We just about convert our NHRA Stock and Super Stock cars to tube chassis to keep the body from twisting at launch.

That being said, I thought it was about the single worst vehicle I have driven from a blind spot aspect. I felt like I was in a Hummer. I have a much better idea of proximity with my 2000 Dodge 4x4 than I do with a FJ Cruiser. Off road would be the last place I would want to take it unless it is dunes or something. I cannot imagine having to negotiate tight areas with a FJ like trees or rocks and stuff.

YMMV.

I've got a 2011 FJ and so far am very happy with it. It does have some bad blind spots, but as long as you know they are there its not a problem. I don't really want my teenagers driving it though.

For you jeep fans, any experience with the TJ unlimited? My daughter wants a jeep and I'm thinking of getting a 2001-2004 wrangler or 2004 unlimited for her some time next year. Seems the longer wheelbase might be better for her since it will mostly be an on road vehicle.

i have a 2006 unlimited and i like it. it rides much better than my old cj and handles much better. i wanted the extra cargo space. it handles the tight spots i encounter as well as the cj. but im not an extreme driver. just around trees and over log type stuff. highway speed handeling will vary with tires. i dont like driving mine over 60 due to that. mines a rubicon and the gears probably arent as well suited for that either. the only problem i see for a daughter having one is the number of boys she would attract. she's probably ahead of you on that one.

I have a stock 05 LJ Rubicon and it rocks. Took it to the ORV park yesterday and it done really well in the sand. Here is to videos of the same hole and I was right behind the blue TJ. I had lockers and he didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNLweBy6gE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUE0KqHkvWs

Yep, that's a very good illustration of having and not having lockers. E

Those FJ here must be a totally different 4x4 than we have here. Most get stuck in the sand and never make it to the rocks. Maybe that is why they to sit it them and just watch.