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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081 |
tex n cal,
I would have to find his article again to make absolutely sure, but I believe it was in the 650-degree range.
Heating it red-hot gets the brass to 800+ degrees, which makes it too soft.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289 |
This is a quote from an article by Dr. Howell. "When the brass around the mouth reaches a temperature of about 660� to 665� Fahrenheit (about 350� Celsius, which equals 662� Fahrenheit), its surface becomes light blue � and this is as hot as you want to let it get."Here's a post from Dutch that helps explain the annealing/stress relieving process and the temps required. The last paragraph is particularly interesting. Bobski This is the best chart I have been able to find on the subject; and it shows you are right. There is a wide range of temperatures that apply. What's worse, 660F doesn't fit with this information AT ALL! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01/images/phase_diagram.jpg) edited to add: Further, in the link below to an engineering manual, the annealing temperature for cartridge brass is listed as 800 - 1400 degrees Fahrenheit -- I suppose it's time to quit quibbling over 650 vs. 660 degrees........ http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_copper_alloy_c26000_cartridge_brassThing is, I have annealed much brass using a 660 degree temp stick, and it WORKS. I get consistent, desirable results. What we do, may be "stress releaving" rather than true annealing -- which may result in the "dead soft" condition described by those who caution against overheating. If so, the 660 on the shoulder is probably the maximum to prevent the neck from going over the 800 degrees listed. FWIW, Dutch.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
� Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist � Good guy! "Teah. All right. Okay. Sure. Mm-hm. You bet."  ("in" joke)
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,909
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,909 |
I'm Catholic and spent much of my younger years "annealing"
Candles were lit.
Does this count ????????/
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Posts: 38,858
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,858 |
Only if you had Ecclesiastical Approbation. 
Last edited by 5sdad; 03/29/11. Reason: found an "l" lying on the floor
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Posts: 60,081
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081 |
Yeah, Fred is a good guy! Good shot, too....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,023
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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better yet ...
hold it in you lips. I've got a better idea, hold "this" in your lips. queer Dude. I was talking about the candle. What were you thinking?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Posts: 3,610
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610 |
I read that article in PS back in the '90s I believe. Have been annealing that way since.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
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Couple of hints.
Keep the neck of the case pointed up a bit, otherwise the hot gas from the flame accumulates in the body of the case and makes it really hot very quickly, I think giving one a false sense that the annealing has had time to work.
Wiping each case with a wet cloth ala' Mule Deer's version does work best. It cleans the considerable soot from the necks but doesn't get any water inside the case if you want to load them that night.
The original post told how I fireformed 2X cases that had been annealed, but don't have a baseline of performance. So, I annealed six .243 cases that have been fired 10 times. I'm going to use the same full power load used previously and load six cases, also fired 10X, that have not been annealed.
If all six annealed cases survive I'll go ahead and anneal the rest of the batch of 100 and use'em up in the Ackley.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Would this method work on primed cases? Would I have to resize after annealing? I'm only asking because I haven't a clue. grin
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis
I Burn While I See
Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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I would not use it on a primed case but that's just being extra cautious and not letting a primer get near a flame. In actuality the head of the case doesn't get nearly hot enough to set off a primer and if you use a wet cloth no water gets in the case to possibly kill the primer.
But I still wouldn't do it.
You can resize before or after annealing, neither procedure has much to do with each other except generally. All you're doing is relieving or "softening" the work hardened neck of the case to keep it from cracking.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I don't see why it wouldn't work with primed cases, because the head of the case never gets hot. But I would be pretty nervous about getting a primer anywhere near an open flame!
No need to resize cases after annealing.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've used JB's method, but started just using the kitchen stove. Turn the gas on low, gently turn in the flame, and plop...into some water. I didn't like all the carbon on the cases from the candle smoke. The rag makes sense though if you don't want to wait for the cases to dry out.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
John,
One other question. Do you find that there is a certain number of cases you can anneal before your fingers lose their sensitivity to the proper amount of heat?
I would think a person can become accustomed to increasing heat, so their fingers don't sense the same amount of heat the more cases you anneal (in one session). Don't know if this is the case or not, so thought I'd ask.
Thanks!
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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IME they increase in sensitivity as you go along. After annealing a batch, I annealed 121 30-06 cases just last night, if not careful I end up with a very minor 1st degree burn on my fingetips. Not really a burn, more like a bad sunburn. You quickly learn to hold on to those cases only until it gets "almost too hot to hold", not until it's a test of willpower to see how much pain you can stand. 
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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One thing I do when heating the case is start counting when the neck gets put into the flame. I've found it takes just about the same count for my fingers to start feeling the heat every time.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've got a bunch of .221 Fireball cases that need annealing pretty bad. I'll have to give this a try.
However, that Fireball case is awfully short, I suspect my fingers will get pretty warm...............
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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Mule Deer's tip about counting should work. "one, tw...ouch!"
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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I don't see why it wouldn't work with primed cases, because the head of the case never gets hot. But I would be pretty nervous about getting a primer anywhere near an open flame! Well I guess I'm a risk taker cuz I just did about 10 primed cases the other day and I'm just fine but there's one problem that occured. When I wiped my cases down with the wet paper towel some water got inside about 6 of the cases and so I just deprimed the whole lot of them and let them dry for a while before seating more primers. So, all in all, it wasn't worth the risk.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It seems simple enough... that even I will try it.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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