Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR 15 Basics

Woofer,

I have a PRI Carbon fiber adorned, uobtanium 6.8 upper.
Yeah the thing shoots.

Here's the rub.

You don't wanna know the retail price of the thing!

On the other hand, a good friend ended up with a BravoCompanyUSA 6.8 upper that looks like USGI plain Jane and the stupid thing is MORE ACCURATE than my high dollar PRI.

I also have it on good accord that very shortly,there will be commercial ammo available to Civillians.

Just not from Remington.

For "Bambo" the 6.8 looks like the ticket.

At least 2 major ammo makers are trying to get it into production.

Can't say the same for the Grendel.
(And I am a grendel dimension fan!)


Hang in there!
E4E

Rost,

Your views on Colt Mirror mine.

I love their contractual attention to detail.

I resent their disregard of the American public that made them what they were.

It's a damn shame.
E4E

Grendel is competiton/hunting round but as its custom from one maker its not cheap. It didn't stop me from getting a 50 beowulf for a specific purpose though. Depends on what you are after.

As to deer-- I'll side with E4E here. The 6.8 is cheaper and seems accurate. Have a buddy that has a POS 6.8 cheapy and it routinely shoots 1.5 inches at 100.

Jeff

I've understood what everyones been saying up until parts of this post, so please help.

Why is the M16A2 hard to replicate. Is it really that much better than Bushy's version? Does the military only use Colt for the A2 and not Bushmaster? How about for the M4?

What does Colt water down?

RRA's parts aren't milspec, but in what way. Does that mean that they're tighter fit, and milspec requires room for dirt? Just a chromelined barrel? Are RRA parts not interchangable with Colt and Bushy? Does a milspec gun mean that a full auto sear can be installed (with tax of course)?

Can of worms? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Currently, I'm thinking of buying a civilian Bushy M4 with fixed carry handle and as many mags as I can afford. Once the dust settles from that spending spree, I will then buy a flattop RRA with a 24" barrel and a good trigger. I'm not as worried about the target models being banned, but before GW leaves office I want to buy as many visually offensive firearms as I can afford.

222

222,

Can open..... Worms= Everywhere.

Colt.....

What a lovely pain in the rump!!!!!!!!!!!

The M16A2 is what it is.
A good rifle.

Colt chooses to add to and modify the their civvie version.

Takedown pins are non standard on civvie AR-15s.

Lower receivers on Colt AR's feature the famed "Horsey bridge".

Availability of Civvie Colts is spotty, and their customer service is right up there with "Yugo" and "Ronco".

However, the bits and pieces meet or exceed milspec.

4150 barrels, Magnetic particle inspected bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and individually proofed barrels.

Ifit wasn't for the pin diameter, and BS dimensions of the lowers, the things would be OK, were it not for the price.

It's a decision thing.


Bushmaster....

Std. Mil spec dimensions, 4150CM barrels, though the ROT is 1-9 and NOT 1-7, finish is NOT per Milspec, and they spot check a vendors components with MPI.

Rock river.....
LOTS of hands on attention to detail dimensionally.
Little attention to Mil-Spec finish.
4140 barrels in 1-9 twist that are NOT SPEC.
The attention to fit and finish carries them.

The Bushy A2 20" has a "Heavy barrel" under the handguards.
This detracts from handling as compared to the G.I. M16A2.
Frankly, it's like kissing your sister in comparison.

RRA M4 clones are close, except they fail in the materials end, and the finer details.

If you can snag a L.E./Govt Colt currently, things will be OK concerning the smaller details. As they are covered.

Commercial Colts beg the question "Why".


This is the reason so many folks build their own from best parts.

Hope this helps.
E4E

Almost forgot,

A Mil-spec AR, is accpted as non mil-spec simply because of the lack of an extra hole in the lower, and the specific parts that support the auto sear not being there.

Conversion to auto involves parts, and machining.

Not to mention some effort to circumvent the law.

Understand that anyone that tells you that it is "Easy" to convert an AR to full auto, is either a Machinist with loose morals, a Class 2 Gunsmith looking to make a legal conversion and understating the matter, or an idiot.

"Mil-Spec"as a standard of materials, dimensions, and finish is seperate from fire control configuration when it comes to the matter between the AR, and the M-16 family.

Currently, NO ONE makes and sells a "Mil-Spec" AR or M4.

Have had good luck with Bushmaster, and that is what my gang is issued.


Though not without some minor tweaks being needed.

Gas key staking, bolt breakage at the Cam pin hole reported within the industry, and some parts being cast instead of being forged giving out when abused(Used as normal, to us)
Being the majority.

My own Carbines are assembled using LMT components with Rock River/CMT-Stag/ andBushy lowers that have been mated.

Colt is dead.

They recently defaulted on a sling contract with a buddy of mine.

Leaving him in the lurch for many several thousands of dollars.

Employees in Hartford, drag race to the bank with their pay checks.
Customer service does not exist.
I wish this was not true.

Colt is the standard.

Too bad they let politics muddy their best feature.

It ain't easy, but it's the truth.
E4E

Thanks E4E. I'll keep reading those last posts over and over until it soaks in---------------often too much run-off the first time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

222

222,


Given my druthers, I'd look to Colt and go on with life.


Life sucks cuz it ain't that simple.


Colt married the beast.
Now we all have to ask who it is, that will catch the Garter.

I want the same as the rest of us.

Frustrated in Covert.
E4E

As a Canadian, I feel that I must recommend the ELCAN as a sighting system.

Also, are the Colts that you buy down there the same LE series as ours (LE6920)?

Notice the Maple Leaf on the Colt lower? How in the heck did that get there? Check out the web site:

web page

E4E,
I've been wading through the thousand pages of questionable advice at ar15.com, and still have a couple questions.

You suggested the Colt, and be done with it. Also finding an LE/Govt. carbine if possible. To your knowledge is the QC for the LE/Govt. rifles as stringent as for the military contract rifles? Are they still MPI'd, and how many parts are the same between Colt's M4gery and the real thing? Do the semi-auto versions of the LE/Govt. carbines have blocks in them that prevent the burst option later (with proper paperwork and $), or does Colt sell two different recievers depending on which orders come in).

As I'm learning more, I'm interested in my options with companies like LMT and CMT. Assuming I'm of average ability, (and very detail oriented) how long would it take for me to learn how to properly bolt together an AR so that I could use the best parts out there? Using the very best components, I'm sure the cost margin between a homebrew and a Colt will be small. In your opinion, how small, and is it worth it? Or buy a Colt and learn to replace parts as they break?

I feel the AR bug coming on pretty strong. I never thought I'd say that, but I'm now looking past the ugly to it's "inner beauty" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

222

I have the AR bug as well but have a couple of tech. questions...thought this thread would be a good place to ask...Never had an AR before,,,several Mini 14s and thats it for semi rifles

How hard is it to change calibers with the AR. I was thinking of a 7.62X39 AR that could be switched to a 6.5 grendle. They use the same parent case so the bolt and mags and upper recever would be the same,,,,can you simply switch out the barrel on an AR????

I have heard different opinions on the issue of head space with the AR platform,,,

Also have a guy wanting to sell me a Bushmaster with my choice of a 20 inch gov. upper or a 16 inch Vmatch upper for $700,,,,,gun is in veryyyyy good shape....but is in 223,,,could this upper be used for my 7.62x39 AR with a new bolt or would the upper reciever need to be different?

Thanks,,,,PPosey

PPosey

Most bolts are good enough to swap around. Checking never hurts though.

Yes the bolt for both rounds is the same.

Can you switch barrels? Yes, but its much easier to swap uppers out. You could keep the same carrier/bolt if it headspaces close enough, saving 100 bucks or more.

223 upper is same as 7.62x39/grende/6.8/50 beowulf,458 socom etc.....

Jeff

Thanks,,,

So I could get the $700 bushmaster in 223,,,,get a 7.62X39 bolt and barrel and mags and have a working bushmaster in 7.62X39 and be set for a grendel conversion later.

If I then needed or wanted to I could switch back to the 223,,

I'm not talking a quick change system,,,,just the ability to convert say for big game season "6.5 grendle" or if ammo selection is limited, I know the whole upper is easier to change but I'm having to keep cost down and can't find a quality 7.62X39 AR upper that I can afford. There are some cheaper uppers and "kits" out there but common sense it telling me to stay away from them......

takes me about 30 minutes to swap barrels out. You have to have the tools though.

Brownells is a good tool source.

Also I"d be inclined to buy a dedicated bolt to each barrel. They are cheap enough and you can use the same carrier.

Jeff

Thats plenty fast on the barrel/caliber change,,,,I'm geussing that head space is set when you instale a barrel????? Never messed with an AR.....
The head space issue would be the reason for having a bolt for each barrel?? Makes sense

Thanks for the advice.

Headspace is set when the extension is put on and the barrel chambered. On an AR you only remove( a bit more complicated) a nut and slide the barrel out and slide the new one in and tighten the nut.

Having a bolt deadicated to each barrel means it matches the extension/headspace/chamber.

Personally i've never had a bolt off more than about 4thous. And thats plenty close for me. Most of my bolts are within 1-2thous of each other because my barrels are custom and I get what I request.

Although I"ve never seen as many barrels as an armorer will, if you stick with quality bolts and barrels you can probably remain just fine. If in question (IE not buying a bolt and barrel of known headspace) I'd invest in a set of go/no go gauges just to be safe.

E4E will chime in with more info I'm sure.

Jeff

PPosey,

As Rost said, most bolt/Barrel extensions are close enough, and it's rare to find a combo that wont at least pass on a "Field" gauge.

However they do happen occaisionally.

As for using the same upper and swapping barrels, I would caution against it.

The threads on the upper are anodized aluminum, and after a few installations are noticeably not the same as new.

Each installation loads the threads differently, and they were never meant to be worked in the manner you might entertain.

A seperate and dedicated upper is the way to go.

The tools aren't too expensive, and good components bought over time will lower the initial outlay and total costs.
Bravo companyUSA, and Bushmaster have G.I. spec tools that might save you a buck or two.

Stripped upper recievers run around 89 bucks, good (CMT mil-spec) B/C groups are running right around 120 bucks, barrels depend on what you are asking for, and shopping around you can find some deals.

About that 7.62 conversion...
Don't overlook the magazine issue.

Finding good mags ain't cheap or easy.

So much o that Vulcan arms has developed a true 7.62 AR that uses AK mags.

Have heard mixed reviews on Vulcan, and ain't got eyeballs on one yet, but I DO like their concept on that lower design.

Best of luck!
E4E

222,

The Colts are all MPI processed.
Govt/L.E. or Civve.

No Blocks on our Govt./L.E. Carbines, but that ain't to say they are all that way.

Then again, there's more to converting things than just the block, so if you are considering legal conversion..... ya might want to chat things up with a Class 2 'Smith once you get the paperwork out of the way.

As for putting one together, it takes a couple runs through to get comfy with some of the finer sub assemblys.

I suppose a guy that is used to tinkering with firearms, and had the proper tools could get a quality build the first time if he snuck up on things and had a solid reference.

Bushmaster has a video out concerning the matter, and the USMC or Army Armorers manual are great resources.

The Uppers promised by Paul at Bravo Company will be 100% Mil-spec and fully MP inspected to a standard that meets or exceeds anything out there currently, and for a decent price.

LMT lowers can be had, as well as those from CMT(Stag Arms) that are not too pricy.

If you factor in tools, and time, it might be a wash if you are just putting together one rifle.

It's cheaper after you have been bitten hard, and have several projects running constantly though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you get bitten, and then go gadget crazy, the whole cost thing goes out the window anyhow.

I have seen budget built M4's, end up as $3,000.00 12lb Vanity rifles after the bug set teeth.

Being little more than a leggo set with a trigger, can lead to complications of the wallet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Best of luck to ya!
E4E

I'll second the mag issue with the 7.62 round. Certainly someone would come up with one sooner or later....

On the issue of threads-- FYI non of my uppers has more than 8 tubes on it so far.

IF scoping-- you can still get away with a cheap route. Use the same carrier, use a flat top upper. Use a dedicated bolt and barrel. Swap the carrier around as needed. Then you need the upper, a gas block and tube and float tube or handguards-- all cheap enough. You save the price of sights. Forward assist and dust cover are cheap enough-- though I do have a cheap upper without. Charging handle could be swapped too.

The real issue is finding a 6.5 grendel barrel or a 50 barrel. To sub you can buy 6.8 barrels and 458 socom barrels are coming from RRA-- From what I've heard anyway.

Jeff

Reading all this 2-3 times,,,,,

thanks for all the info,,,,,,