|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 830
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 830 |
Capt: Not sure, but it sounds pretty solid when you "knock" on it. It is also pretty heavy. My Omega you can definately tell it is hollow.
Venor ergo sum
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
Capt: Not sure, but it sounds pretty solid when you "knock" on it. It is also pretty heavy. My Omega you can definately tell it is hollow. if its solid then , it still seems to have been able to do it part to protect the shooter well enough .
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 975
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 975 |
CVA rec'd much bad press in the '90's over quality concerns. These faulty steel alloy and tempering problems were corrected many years ago.
I've owned a CVA Optima for several years. I bought it second hand from my friend's son who had to have the latest and greatest Apex model. It came without an Owners Manual. I contacted CVA and they kindly sent me a PDF link.
I use Triple 7 powder. 105 grains produces best accuracy for me and I've certainly tried many loads. The crusher sabot cup and .430 Hornady XTP 240 grain bullet is my hunting load.
The various F powders are virtually obsolete. Yes, they were fine in their day but Triple 7 and others provide better performance and slightly cleaner,too. Unless you already have a container of FFF, I wouldn't consider hunting with it.
That being said, there are scores of muzzle-loader hunters who favor the Hawkins style of the early 1800's. They love their FFF powders loaded from genuine ox horn powder containers along with leather fringed jackets and the whole Jeremiah Johnson/Jim Bridger outfits. I have no quarrel with these dedicated hunters. They won't be changing anytime soon to Triple 7. Each to his own I say; my focus is scope sighted and easy to operate and clean.
Hope this is helpful.
Sherwood
FIRE UP THE GRILL - is NOT catch and release!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
IIRC FFFG would be OK with round balls in small bores like .45 or .50 but when you get into conicals or .54 cal and bigger FFg is the way to go. I doubt many shoot round balls in inline rifles. 90 grains of 3f is an excellent load for the .72 caliber Long Land Musket. 2f is good for blanks.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 14,193 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 14,193 Likes: 1 |
Well we're Green and we're Gold, and we play better when it's cold. All us Cheese heads have our favorite superstar. We love Brett Favre.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567 |
Shoot 90 gr of 2F with 535 cast bullet in my .452 Whitworth. Works just fine, no drama at all. Think about all the black powder cartridges that use even hotter loads ? Ballistics about like a 45-70-500 smokeless load.
90 gr also in my .61 Baker flinter with a custom 1.4 ounce pure lead custom maxi ball. Ballistics about like a Brenneke 16 ga Boar slug load.
Real muzzle loaders don't use 209 shotgun primers........
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
Real muzzleloaders can hit what they are shooting at.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,587 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,587 Likes: 1 |
but,swampy. you call those junk remington 700 ml ,'real muzzleloaders when infact they are converted centerfires and a very poor ml design.
all my cva ml's have been great guns.
john barsness never owned a savage or a tikka
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177 |
That caution about using FFFg in rifles is fairly common. I don't know the original source but have heard it before. I have heard it as "Don't use in rifles" as "Don't use in calibers larger than .50". The theory is that the finer granulation, as compared to Fg or FFg, exposes more surface area to the flame front and thus the powder burns more quickly and pressure spikes more sharply. Seems that FFFg use in smoothbores is not subject to the same caution...at least I have not read about that. The most I have read (and done) is to reduce charges by 10% from FFg. But what would happen if you mistakenly loaded a max charge of smokeless in place of BP or its equivalent. So while we maybe able to say ; who would ever do that . I am trying to envision a scenario in which such a thing could happen "mistakenly". I cannot imagine circumstances under which such a mistake could be made. I can imagine someone doing such a thing out of ignorance of the consequences but that is not the same thing as mistakenly loading as described. If I were at the range or hunting, I would have to be carrying a flask of smokeless propellant along with my BP. I'd have to have filled that flask at home. Duplexing....the Lyman Cast Bullet manual has quite a few loads that are duplexed. Paul Matthews in his books about BPCRs frequently mentions duplex loads. If I want to use a sub powder like Pyrodex or 777 in my flint guns, I have to duplex with BP to kick start. Pete
Last edited by PeteD; 06/09/11.
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. Karl Wallenda
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
While I would agree with 3F having more surface area , thus a quicker burn , faster spike ��. The rest makes 0 sense Your most accurate load for a given rifle is still going to be in a given pressure range . By reducing the 3F load , what your doing is dropping the pressure closer to what 2F would provide .
the duplexing i was speaking of Pete , isnt duplexing Bp or the Synthetics . what i was getting at is duplexing BP with smokeless. As to someone mistakenly loading that much smokeless. We can call it ignorance or what ever word we want to use . Its still comes back to being a mistake . A couple years ago , at our local range we had a fella show up with his son , an old Jukar rifle and a old can of red dot . Said the gun was his dads and he wanted to show his son how to shoot it . Toney Roberts who owns Mountain Top Trading , up in N Idaho , often places what was a very nice smoothbore in front of his trade tent . He loaned it to a fella who somehow managed to load the thing with smokeless . The gun is now the most wicked looking piece of metal you ever saw
Speaking for myself , nothing , absolutely nothing surprises me anymore . The number of people walking around with out a working brain cell . Simply is un countable
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177 |
The rest makes 0 sense Your most accurate load for a given rifle is still going to be in a given pressure range . By reducing the 3F load , what your doing is dropping the pressure closer to what 2F would provide . I didn't say that it made sense.....just reporting the rationale as I have heard it. As I understand it, the pressure profile is a different curve than, let's say FFg. Narrower, I suppose. The peak is arrived at more quickly. I am guessing that it would be easier to get into an overpressure excursion. Assuming the same weight powder charge, let's say 90 grains, that 90 of FFFg is going to produce more pressure (or is it the same pressure more quickly?) than an equivalent load of FFg assuming that the same weight projectile is used. The duplexing of BP with smokeless is what I was referring to in the Lyman book and in the Matthews books. A typical entry in Lyman - 50/90 Sharps: 498 grain cast bullet, 7.1 grains of SR4759 and 63 grains of FFg (Max load). The rule of thumb is 10% of the total weight of the charge is smokeless. Pete
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. Karl Wallenda
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,539
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,539 |
There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
understood pete your just passing on info . no issue also as i understand it that would be correct concernig 3F . but i do not belive this to be critical typical entry in Lyman - 50/90 Sharps: 498 grain cast bullet while this may be true a) is a cased bullet b) the guns reciever is of a complete diffrent design your not dealing with a drum bolster or a snail bolster with a cleanout or for that mater a nipple which is derectly subject to the pressures of the bore
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet Even light loads can be dangerous in the spanish made muzzleloaders.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567 |
Pictures ? Evidence ? UTube videos? magazine reports ? You own/owned/shot how many ?
What brands are "Spanish made"?
Making it up again Swampy ? OR should I say STILL making it up ?
You really need a BIG STICK applied to your butt.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
makin crap up again.
I shoot those spanish CVA's a ton each and every year and not once have i ever ran into any sort of safety issue.
Those that do run into it are usually new guys with no knowledge whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet I am light in the loafers and can be dangerous to to other hunters when out hunting Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel dont forget Traditions . they could join CVA . not to mention with the seemingly over whelming . Maybe even the Spanish firearms industry could get involved and do a class action . Folks like Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, Ardessa and Grulla Armas Maybe we could even get Winchester to dance into the mix and join a class action im sure folks would even chip in little money to get that started . I don�t have much but I would dump a 20.00 in for the cause
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel dont forget Traditions . they could join CVA . not to mention with the seemingly over whelming . Maybe even the Spanish firearms industry could get involved and do a class action . Folks like Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, Ardessa and Grulla Armas Maybe we could even get Winchester to dance into the mix and join a class action im sure folks would even chip in little money to get that started . I don�t have much but I would dump a 20.00 in for the cause He claimed he could easily kill an African lion with his 30-06 . We will raise funds for that if he promises to use the 700 and that ammo on his lion hunt.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
personaly i cant see why a 30.06 wouldnt work . hell in this day and age , one could simply use something like photoshop
|
|
|
|
644 members (160user, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 06hunter59, 16gage, 12savage, 68 invisible),
2,875
guests, and
1,314
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,644
Posts18,512,394
Members74,010
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|